Ethical non monogamy WTF?

[Whatisthisdamnednonsense]

I’m back on the dating apps after a two year relationship so been out of the dating scene. I’ve come across men saying they are looking for “ethical non monogamy” and also men saying they’re “polyamorous”. This wasn’t a thing in 2021 when I last had a dating profile! It’s just code for “I like shagging around” isn’t it? I’m open minded about dating but am baulking at how common it seems to be, I would say it’s every one in six or seven profiles!! Anyone else noticed this?
ps I’m back on bumble as it worked for me last time, what are the recommended apps these days? I don’t want hookups or one nighters! Just a nice boyfriend!

Haha thanks but looking for a relationship rather than a scarefest

Why are you assuming it's him forming the bonds with people and not me? Again, you are looking at it through the eyes of monogamy and while that's fine and hangs together and works, it's really not true that a non monogamous way of looking at things is just people deluding themselves. Loads of monog. people have affairs and marriages hang on by a thread. A huge proportion of marriages break up. Most of the reasons are that people can't reconcile wanting to live with and feel bonded to one person while also wanting to have an exciting sexual relationship with another person. Or, I dunno, a more romantic one or a kinkier one or one where you can discuss politics or Grand Theft Auto or poetry.

I know that sex creates hormonal bonds. I have several different kinds of sexual relationship, at different levels of depth and intimacy. When you have tried this for a long time you learn about different kinds of desire, different tones and levels of connection. Me and DH have lots and are very happy to discuss them. I've fallen in love several times, so has he. But I appreciate you can't imagine how that could NOT lead to a marriage ending.

Because unconsidered monogamy pushes together desire, limerance, fantasy, shared values, building a family, financial goals, and best-friendness into one package. If you don't do the sexy part exclusively, it's unthinkable that the rest constitutes a marriage. But your insistence that "he'll leave me eventually" (NB not "you'll leave him eventually", interestingly) shows you can't fathom the conscious decoupling of some of this.

I'm aware I sound like a wanker but I promise you, your post makes as much sense to my marriage as if you warned me that if my husband ever ate dinner with a close friend it would inevitably lead to disaster.

Whey are you not enough for each other that you have to outsource sexual partners why? @Accidentallyrude

Good question @Sevenwondersofthewoo Do you have more than one close friend? Why is one friend not enough for you, that you have to seek different kinds of emotional and social support and shared pastimes with more than one person? Why?

Why is one child not enough for everyone? Isn't the bond and the joy of parenting enough so that you should only do it once? Won't your oldest child feel neglected if you have two or three more? Won't you inevitably leave your oldest child and spend more time bonding with your younger ones?

etc etc. One person can be enough. But also there's no reason why they have to be. Sometimes there is love and truthful connection enough to go round without anyone lacking anything.

They’re shaggers. But make it sound interesting.

Your evading and for your info I have one close friend only but multiple children and step. I sure as hell don’t have sex with them as one is very very illegal and just 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮 and friend is just that a friend

And in a less rhetorically flourishing way, if I answer about my own marriage- some of the things that make us each feel deeply satisfied sexually we find harder to do with each other, exactly because of the reasons we are so intimate in other ways. For example (a made up example) say one person got really turned on by the sense of revealing a part of themselves to another. A deep emotional need for that, I don't mean physically. When you know each other really really well, that kind of frisson isn't possible. So you move on, do other stuff, but why shouldn't you try out the thing you really like once in a while ,with someone else?

Sorry @Accidentallyrude your just a plain old shagger then because you want to try it with others

you don’t want to be someone’s enough you don’t want to be with one person why the hell get married have kids with that person when you don’t see them as enough.

oh that's a disappointing response. Do you not understand I'm using examples of close relationships where it is acceptable to have several people you love, to contrast with marriage where for some reason there is one specific way allowed to love one person only?

I mean obviously I'm not talking about having sex with children or having sex with your friends. I'm actually shocked that your ability to read and understand what you are reading is so poor.

So to answer your question in a totally literal way without analogy. My husband and I are enough for each other because there are other things we both like as well as having sex exclusively with one another. And if we both have them, that improves our bond and therefore de-risks our marriage.

*you're just a plain old shagger

You mean I am someone who likes having sex? Yes. That's not the insult you think it is.

"Enough" in a life together, a whole life together, is about more than sex. So much more. I'm sorry if you don't experience that level of detail and richness in your own marriage.

The last part of your comment is mmmm in previous comment and I’m not buying it. You are not enough in his eyes and vice versa that you need the validation of others.

oh and picking on my spelling is childish

Sorry, what does "mmmm in previous comment" mean?

I'm not trying to be childish, it just doesn't make sense.

You could remember when you respond that it's you challenging my successful happy way of life based on no evidence just judgement. I'm happy to continue to try and answer why it works for me and even answer the challenge that monogamy is better, but there seems little point when you're not really putting much effort into making a good case.

A relationship between a parent and child is completely different from a relationship between life partners.
I agree that one person may not be enough for some people and that's fine as long as they're honest about it, it's just not the same as having more than one child. Parents don't usually leave one sibling because they have a new one they like better. That would be exceedingly rare, whereas it's common with life partners, be they ostensibly monogamous or not. Children don't get heartbroken because they have a new sibling either.

The problem with monogamy is not in monogamy itself, it's people lying about it. They shouldn't agree to it if they can't sustain it. But lots of people want the benefits of somebody being faithful and loyal to them while not being willing to do the same. That comes down to their character, not to the nature of monogamy itself.
The problem with polyamory is also dishonesty, as in people breaking the rules and boundaries of the agreement or fucking off with somebody else they like better. So no matter where we land in terms of our willingness to have other sexual/romantic partners, we are vulnerable to the dishonesty and selfishness of others.

I completely agree that love is always a leap of faith in knowing we make ourselves vulnerable to the dishonesty and selfishness of others. Very well put.

And that's where the children analogy doesn't work of course because it is a one way love based on care not a two way love based on being authentic and known and chosen.

I only used the children analogy to demonstrate that it's possible to have a moral universe where important types of love don't have to be one-to-one exclusively. It doesn't hold water much beyond that though!

The friend analogy is perhaps better.

I have friends who have practiced ethical non-monogamy since at least 2005 so you claiming it "wasn't a thing" in 2021 just means you didn't happen to be told about it. It's definitely a thing. Not my thing but it's an internally consistent mindset. The male friend who is in this world had a vasectomy at age 21 because he felt it was the only ethical way to practice this lifestyle without expecting his female partners to take a lot more risks than him.

Yeah, the problem with defining it as ethical by having a vasectomy is it could create a false sense of security. The risk of STDs remains higher in a non-monoganous lifestyle. But at least you know you are at risk. With a cheater who pretends to be monogamous you don't know you could be in danger, which is one of the reasons why cheating is unconscionable.

Yeah, it's a better analogy, although most people don't experience friendships to be as intimate as partnerships, so jealousy isn't as much of a factor. You also aren't as likely to be dumped by a friend who finds a new friend, though it certainly does happen. Typically it's not quite the blow that being left by a partner is though.

I agree, butt the things you say are sort of my point though. People experience friendships in everything from a very mild way to a lifelong love. But even if you had a best mate you loved and spoke to every day, you wouldn't feel that having another friend took away from that relationship. Some people do feel jealousy when their friends see others or don't call. But they usually, supported by our culture, give their heads a wobble and say well, I don't control them, why don't we arrange something nice to do when we both feel like it.

It's possible to be sad when someone leaves, but in poly relationships I haven't experienced it as so final as "being dumped". It just becomes clear that someone is sort of drifting off, and then why would you want them anyway? Much more like a friend dynamic. But I am pretty privileged as I have DH as my primary and nesting partner (as it's rather tweely called). So I am more open marriage or ENM than poly. Others coming and going sort of matters less. I would be in agony if DH left, but about our life together and the children and our plans and finances and our loyalty, not about sex.

If it works for you, that’s fine of course. You’ve explained your mindset more now and why you and your partner look outside the relationship. For me, I wouldn’t even waste my time committing to someone that I don’t have everything with, someone where it really is true love, and where nobody else could compare, or take my eyes away from them. Hence why I’ve only had two relationships, both long term, both I loved deeply and wouldn’t have looked elsewhere. When the first ended, took many years for my to be with the second guy, so my mindset is 100% different, I don’t need to be with someone just to have someone at home while I go out looking for other things, for me someone is either the real and full deal, or I’m not interested. I’ve never had casual sex or half hearted relationships, just those two guys. You can explain your lifestyle and I can understand your perspective, but I continue to believe it takes a high degree of narcissism and neediness to want that lifestyle and to engage in it. If two people of that mindset meet each other and are happy with that, then good luck to them, of course

I dont see why you have to shag someone to talk about grand theft auto, aren't people with similar interests that you gel with, called friends?

Whilst I don't understand ENM etc and don't think it's for me, what I don't like is the participants who seem to think they are somehow more 'enlightened' than the rest of us in our monogamous relationships.

Yeah, I've encountered a number of poly people who play superior like that. Douchebags, obviously. If they were truly secure about what they are doing they wouldn't act that way. I wouldn't think the douchebags were representative of the group. I actually have never met a poly person who wasn't douchey or a depraved freak, but that's just my narrow personal experience. I tend to think there might be a higher percentage than in the gen pop, because research shows having a lot of sexual partners correlates to some unpleasant personality traits like narcissism.

If I had one best friend for a long time and she preferred somebody new that she met and didn't spend as much time with me anymore, of course it would hurt. It would not hurt as much as losing a life partner, because friendships tend to lack the intensity of the attachment and strength of commitment that partnerships have.
"Why would you want them anyway?" ignores the reality of that depth of attachment. It hurts like a mofo when it is broken. You don't just magically break your bond with somebody that easily because you know you should. If you can do that it only shows that the bond was not that deep.
Personally, I do not want people in my life who are so loosely attached to me that they can just drift away. That applies to friends as well as to lovers.

Of course the agony isn't about sex, it's about losing what you had. If you are monogamous, losing the exclusivity of the bond is horrible no matter whether you choose to stay in the relationship or not. Being betrayed is one of the worst experiences you can have. Some people grieve over it for the rest of their lives. So please don't treat it as if it's inconsequential just because you don't feel the need for an exclusive pair bond. You want people to be understanding about poly, so I suggest you be more understanding about what monogamy means to people. It works both ways.

Yep I fully agree. Known a number of poly people and they all have given off a creepy and desperate vibe, and online also, the ones that offer insight really attempt to sell their ‘lifestyle’ and act as though they are enlightened, when everyone knows it’s just base and unenlightened animal behaviour at its heart.

I think the ones I’ve known in person give off a creepy vibe because they are always sniffing out potential new sexual conquests, and that kind of thing creeps a lot of people out, it’s the kind of things that used to be joked about not so long ago.

I remember a couple we knew, the guy had a roving eye and the woman acted as cool as she could, but just ended up getting pissed and flirting with all the men all the time. There was like a seedy creepy vibe from both of them. Later discovered they were swingers and they messaged me for a chat, wanting a 3some. Considering my values and clear opposite way of thinking, I was offended and didn’t want any more contact with them. Others in the group had also picked up a gross vibe from them, so wasn’t long before they were ditched.

Another guy I knew romanced me and I genuinely thought he was a great guy. Nothing happened between us, but I was getting to know him as a friend, and starting to like him, then he started confessing his thoughts and discussing women as “bodies” and how he’d love a partner to love but to just fuck bodies, which doesn’t mean anything apparently because it’s “just pleasure”, obviously I went right off him, he repulsed me after that. Turns out he was doing the rounds flirting and being “the gentleman” with pretty much every woman he knew, but according to him he only ever told me his true desires. He told me lots of women had come on to him “just for shags”, but as he was religious, he was “good”, I didn’t get how he could be so double minded in terms of thinking he could truly be in love with someone and then casually fuck randoms. Turns out he was highly narcissistic and controlling and made my life hell when I decided to cut contact.

so for me, these individuals lack depth, entirely. They are clearly narcissistic, because objectifying people is a highly narcissistic trait, as is the ability to detach in this way. The also come across to others as sleazy, no matter how ‘enlightened’ they believe they are.

the poly woman above just sounds like every other narcissistic shagger I’ve ever heard speak.

Ethical non monogamy sounds as narcissistically grandiose a way of saying “fucking whoever I can while being too needy to be alone”, as it does to call a pile of dog shit “ freshly turned out organic matter of the whiffy kind” - essentially nobody’s buying it, call it what you want, it’s still a gross pile of shit.

I appreciate all the thoughtful consideration, less so the stereotyping about how we're all desperate sleazebags. I don't characterise monogamous people rudely. It's true I feel like I have done loads of work on myself and so have others I've met doing this. Why should my saying that, and trying to explain how it feels, be so dismissed and see as insulting so posters see fit to be rude?

I'm just saying that if you try non monogamy and do it well and ethically, my experience is there are positive moral and emotional results and less fear of loss than in some monogamous relationships. Of course I understand the pain of losing a partner in a monogamous culture and relationship. Everyone does. But not everyone understands how other relationships can work There are other ways to live, that's all, and ENM can be as rewarding and as moral as monogamy.

Plenty of narcissists and people who are using others for status and objectifying them among the monogamous too.

happy new year all x