Am I acting in retaliation?

[thislittleworldofmine]

My h and I have a one side open relationship. We have spent the last 18months where he has explored very slowly into other sexual options. He currently has sex regularly but doesn't have a girlfriend. Our own relationship is now sexless as part way through the journey I discovered I didn't want to be sexually active with someone who was sexually active with others. This hurt him a great deal and he felt I did it in retaliation. We got through that and I have again come up against something he feels is retaliation. I asked tonight if he would consider me having the same freedom as he has been afforded. I reassured him I was not looking, I had no male attention offered to me and that I didn't intend to act on the freedom in any way, shape or form but that I would like it to be a possibility in the future. He has basically spun out and said that he took 18 months of careful consideration of my feelings and he expected the same from me and if I didn't want it why was I asking and therefore it must be either something I want or a form of retaliation. Am I being blind to my own behaviour?

Why not go straight to Divorce?
You've given him a green light to cheat and he's telling you all about it

You're a very frustrating poster OP.

We can see his side, we don't need to hear his version of events.

Even stripping back all the details let's imagine that this was a more straightforward case of mismatched libidos and one person then seeking sex outside the relationship with the others permission in order to be fulfilled then the situation you are now is not right.

Where he's allowed to seek sex, passion, excitement, fun and intimacy outside the marriage, and you're never allowed to ever,

It should be open for both or neither.

OP life is short. If you died tomorrow is this really how you wished you'd lived?? Starting over is hard but how you are living is much much harder. Go get the life you deserve.

The fact you say your daughter has issues with hygiene points to the possibility she has depression as they can be linked.

Your husband is used to getting his own way through manipulation and asserting control. If she is resisting I can see why they have a bad relationship. What I don’t see is why you continue to make excuses for him regarding your daughter, who you seem completely devoted to and protective of. You have gone above and beyond in terms of reaching out to her during her breakdown and coaxing her back through an abundance of love, understanding and patience. What has her father done? The opposite. He seems to have made no real effort to speak of and yet expects her to come to him and accept his questionable behaviour and I wonder why you aren’t telling him or at least pointing out that he needs to put in the work if he wants to have any sort of relationship with her as he claims. I also can’t understand why, when she has made it clear she wants to distance himself from him, he is attempting to force her into accepting him ‘physically caring for her’ - does this mean bathing her?! She’s 15! Of course she doesn’t want her fucking father anywhere near her naked body! Particularly a sex-obsessed narc who has her mother doing his bidding and convinced he’s some kind of high-leader of a cult of 1! Is he any relation to Andrew Tate??!

Incidentally, I believe you’ve mentioned you have a son - but I haven’t read any information regarding his relationship with you, his father or his sister. How is he coping in this bizarre set up? What does he think of his father and how is he treated by him? How he treats you and his sister? How old is he? He is going to grow up with a pretty warped view on how to treat women with your husband as his mentor.

What has her father done? The opposite. He seems to have made no real effort to speak of and yet expects her to come to him

Cares primarily revolve around feeding her. He has nothing to do with bathing at all. He has tried over the last year to do similar to me....offer time, food, outings etc but she has blocked him and generally will wait until I am available instead.

My son is 20, he is also autistic. He and his dad get on pretty well and he and his sister are close. He knows that we have had counselling both together and individually and knows the situation with his sister but doesn't know about the sexual situation.

Thank you for answering the questions I put to you. The fact, like me, you are awake at this time indicates you’re not sleeping well. It is obviously having a huge impact on your emotional and reveal health which will lead onto the physical side as well - lack of sleep being a classic.

It sounds like you are in dire need of a holiday, or at least some distance between you and your husband/homelife. Is there any way you could take your daughter away with you for a couple of days or even just one night? You could gradually increase this. It might do her good too. Would your son be alright with this?

Thanks Sceptical - I am not in UK so it is early afternoon here x

Oh I see, sorry! Just me then lol

I still think you and your DD could do with a break though, I hope you can x

Thank you. We have tried a couple of times. The eating takes a nose dive so it is a bit of a fine line balance

@thislittleworldofmine we all want to help.

I think this thread must be really hard to read. People telling you what you should do must feel very overwhelming.

I wonder if all the concerned MNers on this thread could start helping you by suggesting small, manageable steps for you towards freedom?

I think posting here is one of those steps.

Another might be consulting a family lawyer, or doing some research online about your DD's care if you were to separate from your husband. Could you arrange a meeting with a specialist Family Court lawyer?

Another small step might be some individual therapy - preferably with a female therapist (a feminist ideally!!!)

From the time difference, I'm guessing you're in Australasia. The Family Court in Australia is quite liberal, for example, and while there's "no fault" divorce, your DD's wishes would be very much taken into account.

Can other MNers suggest small, sustainable steps, which are not overwhelming to @thislittleworldofmine , but might start to free her up?

Slow and steady, OP ...

We are in NZ. I am going to call Family Law on Monday and I have a counselling session so will talk further to her. Thank you - I am so scared you are all right but at the same time I can see all that I have done that has contributed to this.

She has said to me that she needs a 'dad filter' or 'dad buffer' as he doesn't listen to her.

This is why your dd has issue with her dad. He is not listening. It’s not because you are in the way that he can’t build a relationship with her.
it’s because he doesn’t listen, wants his own way (does that remind you if something?) and hasn’t build such a great relationship with her in the first place.

Looking after someone who is so ill is very hard. I get that. It’s hard for you and for him. But he can’t blame you for it to be hard and requiring so much effort.

Why are you so scared that we are right? I think the answer to that might be an important factor in why you are accepting this situation.

Also you seem to feel that you have a lot of responsibility for what has happened. What exactly do you think you've done wrong?

Your daughter said that your husband is at least partly to blame for her breakdown. I think you are absolutely right to protect her from him. You did a brilliant job dealing with her illness, you sound like an amazing mum. Can you apply some of the care you show your daughter to yourself?

I think @YellowAsteroid suggestion for small steps is a good one.

Personally I'd find a quiet space with something to write with and on and make a list of how I want my life to look in the next year to 5 years, who is in it and where.

If that includes your DH and living in the arrangement you have now then you are already living the life you want and are truly happy, that's not sarcasm I've met many non-conformist couples who seem to be quite happy. If not then you will need to make some pro and con lists for what you think you might want your furture to look like, in this you need to only consider your happiness, this can be difficult when you are worn down by situations which I suspect you are.

An architect I heard speak once said he approaches his planning by removing all the walls and considering only what was needed and then what was wanted. I thought that was a great way to approach a new project and it stops me thinking "inside the walls" that are already there. It is strange to consider things through "without walls" to begin with but once you realise that you can find ways around those "walls", all the things that seem set in stone and improve them, it makes way more sense to start with a completely blank canvas and chuck everything out of your life and add back in what you really need and want.

There are few people who are completely blameless when a relationship breaks down. The thing to remember is that you are not a relationship expert no one is, you recognise you make mistakes, we all do, none of us are perfect. Accepting the blame for some of the things that have happened is healthy, sometimes we try and see too much of the other persons view though and end up carrying more of the blame ourselves than we need. Lots of relationships have mismatched sex lives, the solution isn't finding a 3rd, 4th, or 5th person to get involved with the one partner, nor is it always exploring kinks. Some partners who love their spouses but find their sex life frustrating put their sexual energies into non-sexual things for example rather than run off to be "tutored" by a sex worker ... I'm really curious as to what that is!

Nothing you’ve said in your posts had indicated wrongdoing from your side, although no relationship or person is perfect. However the things you’ve outlined to us here show you had a sexual incompatibility with him wanting to do things that turned you off him over a period of time. I’m sure if he hadn’t pushed those specific things (which you’ve given no detail of here) then you’d still have a healthy sex life. He decided that the solution was sex therapy. He has 100% made it all about getting what he wants, one way or a another, and pushing your boundaries and consent in order to achieve that. The issue most of us here have, is that we consider a man like that to be highly abusive, and that the solution back then would have been that if he wants to go outside the relationship to explore his kinks, then he should accept that he is leaving the relationship to do so. You’ve done everything you can to just keep a hold of him, when the solution that would give you the chance of a happy future is to leave him. He has decided for you now, that unless you are happy to sleep with him while he sleeps with other women, then your sex life and romantic life is essentially over, and for the rest of your lives you will be his wife at home having his retirement with him, and outside of the house he will be a single man exploring romantic and sexual relationships with other women. Is that what you’ve decided also? Is that what you want? By the way, that’s the best case scenario out of a list of very depressing outcomes. The likely scenario is that if he’s not already telling another woman he loves her, he will be at some point, and this is a guy that won’t stick around in a scenario that doesn’t best suit him and his needs. Do you think he’s worried about YOUR retirement and financial security- I don’t, he’s worried about his own. All he needs is to meet a woman with a similar situation and he can have his retirement with her. He’s just not ready right now to jump ship as he’s likely not met her. Actually I think you need to not make it so easy for him, because he really doesn’t care about your feelings at all. He is not in love with you, but you are useful to him at this stage in your lives. I don’t think he’d care that much if you were romantic or sleeping with someone else if he didn’t have a lot to lose financially and with childcare. I think it worries him that you would meet someone you’d want to leave him for, and then the finances would be messed with. You are still clinging on to some kind of romantic ideal that he’s wrapped up in you and able to be hurt by you and what you do from a romantic angle, which I 100% do not believe at all, because if he felt like that, he’d be very present with you, working things out putting the sex stuff to one side, and definitely not sleeping with other women and seeking emotional connections.

Presently you are living in a delusion in terms of how he feels for you, but his actions speak much louder. He is a narcissistic sexually deviant coercive control freak, and with people like that, only their needs count. What would seem totally unreasonable behaviour and treatment of another person to the majority, seems like a divine right to a narcissist. You are being played big time.

@MarkingBad that’s a really thoughtful post. And one that made me think re the architect and what is needed plus what you want.
very insightful.

id also add to that that needs can change. And it’s always ok to review the plans. Actually we should probably do that once a year or so.

I have contacted Family Law and have an appoint on the 26th. It just feels a bit surreal and I even wonder if I am the one who has conduct issues and that is maybe what he reacts to. I just find it so hard to believe he would do anything nasty on purpose. I am really worried that I will push him into a reaction and this may look like him retaliating.

I like what you said MtClair that needs change so maybe even though I don't want to go along with things like they are anymore that is kind of okay?

I guess even if it is really me that is causing the issues - it still isn't healthy and I can face that maybe I just should not be with anyone until I have done more work on myself.

I even wonder if I am the one who has conduct issues and that is maybe what he reacts to. I just find it so hard to believe he would do anything nasty on purpose. I am really worried that I will push him into a reaction and this may look like him retaliating.

This is how much he has gaslit and abused you - you sound as though you have a version of "Stockholm syndrome"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Stockholm syndrome is a proposed condition or theory that tries to explain why hostages sometimes develop a psychological bond with their captors.[1][2]

Emotional bonds can possibly form between captors and captives, during intimate time together, but these are considered irrational by some in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims.

Hmmm, wonder whether there is more into this and the OP is not blameless.

OP, I understand that there was a libidos mismatch which led to you having an agrement for him to seek sex outside of marriage in an open arrangement. During this time you continued having sex with him, I imagine your libido is lower so it wasn’t as often. But it was happening.

So, you have this situation where one needs sex for example once a month, while your partner needs it every night (as an example) and you tell him “I don’t want it as often, you are allowed to find it somewhere else”. He did but you continued having sex once a month. And then you told him “actually, I don’t even want that with you. And you know what? I do want it but not with you. I ll also seek it out of marriage”.

So, OP, you basically tell him you want sex but not with him. And one could say that you may have manipulated him as well. I think you are both delusional and kidding yourselves. This marriage seems to be so over and you are staying because you don’t have the courage to do the honourable thing and get a divorce. And please, don’t use this excuse “I don’t divorce because I have kids”. They do pick up on everything and they do feel and see what is going on, causing them unspeakable trauma.

Please separate for the shake of your kids. You both sound like you have narcissistic tendencies and only care about yourselves.

Christl - I think this is what is worrying me that actually it is me that is the narcissist and I haven't wanted to see it. I don't think he has manipulated me on purpose and I don't think I have done it on purpose either but I can see that I have made it impossible for him. I agree the marriage is over and that I need to do a lot of work so that I don't put anyone else through this and so I can show my kids a better way of relating to people. I will do the family law appointment and get some advice on how to set myself and the kids up in terms of housing. I am terribly sad that I have hurt him in such a way and I think he needs a chance to start fresh while I work on myself.

What a load of crap.

He wanted to open the marriage, and inherent in that is the risk that he might fall for someone else- in other words that through the experience of the open marriage, his perspective changes radically on what he wants from a relationship.
But that’s a two way street- OP is also ‘at risk’ of having a changed perspective through the experience of an open relationship. And that’s what’s happened-her perspective is that she doesn’t want a sexual relationship at all with him. That’s not something to blame her for. That was a known risk of their situation. Maybe it lies somewhere in the details: did he actually tip over into coercing her; did his preparations for going out lead her to see how little care he took when it came to her; did he brag/stonewall her about what happens; did he try to bring stuff from ‘outside’ into their bed?

Notwithstanding that, I also think you are wrong about divorce. Having negotiated one very different relationship, I’m sure they can manage another. To talk about ‘honourable’ and putting a moral slant on this is way off the mark. OP is a grown up who can do as she pleases. She is perfectly entitled to negotiate a relationship where they do not divorce, or even separate finances, whilst effectively coparenting and being free to do as they please sexually. If the negotiated agreement is OK with both of them who the heck are you to pronounce judgement on it? And both are free to renegotiate/ divorce/whatever in the future.

I think I might have triggered something in you. You seem very aggressive.

In any case, read the OPs response to my comment. I think that deep inside she knows her participation in all this. Consious or subconsious.

Really? I would suggest that your passive aggressive response makes it quite clear which of the two of us is really being triggered (!) here. Projecting much?

Anyway, OP can make her own choices. But I would remind her she doesn’t owe anyone sex, ever- even if the other person says she does and it makes them feel sad.

But I would remind her she doesn’t owe anyone sex, ever- even if the other person says she does and it makes them feel sad.

I do know this, thank you. I guess while I know I don't owe it to him...I can see how much it has hurt him that I can't be how he wants me to be and for a while it hurt me to know that I could never be enough for him. I didn't know that opening up the marriage would result in me feeling icky about having sex with him and maybe I should have tried harder to work through this but I didn't and so here we are. I am not in any way, shape or form looking for a sexual relationship outside the marriage - I should never have voiced that I may want such a thing in the future, I have owned this and apologised that my thought was badly timed and insensitive. I can see how I have contributed to all this mess and I am really really sad I have put him through this and backed him into this corner he is in.