August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@JustLaura that’s just terrible, it’s like they want to keep you in a heightened state of anxiety and stress permanently. That’s why mine tries to constantly project serious health anxieties onto us all. Thank goodness everything was ok for you. They literally lack any compassion at all x

@JustLaura mine is the same. She did have a daughter die at 4 months from a heart issue. You can image the sorts of things she was saying me when my son had a completely normal heart murmur. Then always 'I can't help it after everything I've been through', even so far as to say that I wasn't pushing the doctors enough and that I might regret it (what an implication).
It's weird though as she refused to admit that she was going through menopause and claimed to have some unique illness that doctors weren't investigating. I wonder if there's a thing with NMs and aging? Mine also doesn't let her grandchildren call her grandma as it makes her sound old.
So after saying 'of course I'll give you space' she's message me 5 times in 24 hours begging me to explain. I nearly replied this morning and need to stay strong today. I know there's more to come and I'm prepared for it.

Hi I have just found this thread off the back of another

i am wondering if any of you have had any kind of therapy and found it useful. My situation is different as in I had a good happy childhood and the issues are recent and caused by my older dsis who I am now nc with I am hurt and sad by her behaviour towards me and it has caused a strained relationship with my elderly dm I feel incredibly let down by her which maybe irrational of me as I am not sure on her capacity level and she is being manipulated by dsis

NM’s and aging… this may be a thing as mine also refused to be called grandma for the same reason. She also wears clothes that I would typically put a much younger person in and she always used to say “what just because I don’t wear flowery skirts and dresses”. She hates the thought of getting old.

Well done you for not replying, that’s absolutely the best thing you can do. Engaging in a conversation or an argument with a NM is like pissing in the wind.

Definitely NM have a problem with aging!! My mum recently started going on and on about my age (53) and trying to make me feel paranoid about it. Well she’s onto a loser there as I’m embracing my ‘cronehood’ as I call it with gusto. I love being older, a lot less pressure and I enjoy being more invisible, plus the experience and wisdom you acquire. That’s not to say I don’t make the best of myself. She was getting angrier and angrier because it didn’t bother me. So I’ve recently grown my hair out natural and for me, it was empowering and liberating to be my genuine self. Now I know others have a different view and that’s absolutely fine. Well my mum went absolutely nuts about it, my hair has some very subtle silver highlights but is mostly ash brown still. She’s livid! Said some very cruel things and at one point bellowed at me that I should dye it. Basically it’s making her feel old, it’s not actually about me. All she goes on about is how old age is a curse (a terrible thing to say for obvious reasons) and either envious or furious I don’t feel the same as her.

@User543211 you’ll definitely get more!! Just ignore. You’ve explained you need some space, is up to her to respect that.

@SkylarkDay it's crazy isn't it!

I don't see what business it is of any ones! Mine complains about my choice of clothing all the time. Too long. Too short. Too much fabric. Too skin tight..... Then make up! In her eyes it's too much or so little that I look ill and I need to put some make up on!

I don't get bothered by this anymore though I am who I am and wear what I like!

Every single time I see her though she says I look tired or worn out! No wonder! NO WONDER!

@JustLaura they are totally incapable of saying anything nice! It’s another ploy to keep us all in our place and trying to make us feel crap!! I got weight comments too as I’m a size 12. My mum has always been a size 8 and goes on and on about how tiny she is!! However she doesn’t eat normally and never has. She brags about how she can’t stuff her face like all these greedy people (she’s obsessed by people’s size and so cruel about anyone larger) and because of this my sister has struggled with anorexia all her life, even ending up in a residential clinic at one point. Mind you, Mum now has osteoporosis and I wonder how much of that is self caused.

I had two proper sessions just before lockdown started but didn’t fancy continuing online. Personally although the counsellor was good, it wasn’t for me. However I spent a lot of time with a much older friend in our village at the time (we had a village allotment patch that we both enjoyed working on) and he was a mediation counsellor by trade. He helped me enormously just through general chat as we did the gardening. I think because there was no pressure and it was unofficial and we only spoke about it when I wanted to, he really helped. He’d also grown up with a narcissist toxic mother so that really helped him understand too. However others here have said they do have counselling and find it very helpful, so it may be worth a try.

@SkylarkDay @JustLaura the first time my mother saw me when I was pregnant she greeted me with “hiya fatty” 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ you couldn’t make it up.

@SkylarkDay thank you for replying I think i might give it ago as it may help me process my feelings and emotions with someone outside the situation . I have discussed it endlessly with dh and my adult dc and they are so angry with my dsis I probably need to find that anger but despite everything she’s done I feel sad i feel what have i done to make her treat me this way. I can’t talk to other people as I am embarrassed and ashamed of her behaviour and she has turned all mutual family friends against me with her lies yet i some how still feel sorry for her

i am worried about therapy opening up things I did have a great childhood no real problems as a teenager but as an adult I am beginning to think dm favoured dsis who is single no dc and a financial nightmare dm has lent her tens of thousands of pounds over the years never paid back. Dm did get weird when dd turned 16/17 started putting me down to her my job re wrote history claimed I dropped out of college i didn’t I got 4 A levels but i did take a year out to decide what degree I wanted to do and never went to university i own this I encouraged dd who has just completed her masters degree not to make the same mistakes I did i excused her behaviour thinking she wanted the best for dd as I met dh at 17 we bought a house when I was 19 I am 47 now we are still together so while it’s not the path I encourage my dc it has worked for us

@Spendysis it’s probably worth a try. My friend didn’t know any of my family so yes, I suppose I found it helpful talking to someone totally uninvolved who gave an independent view/advice on things.

I've been in counseling for 6 years now, with an incredible specialist, whom I found totally by chance. For me, personally, it has allowed me to aknowledge my traumatic upbringing and the narcissism of my parents. I think I wouldn't have my DC had I not done this process.
That said, it has to be someone who knows about this, otherwise you'll end up with the basic apollogetic stuff that doesn't even scratch the surface of the problem.

I'm also sitting on the back, here, just building momentum. I can't thank you enough to those who are sharing 🙏

I developed compulsive overeating as a coping mechanism for dealing with my NM. She had (has?) an unhealthy relationship with food and seemed to revel in being slimmer than me. It must've made her sick that my half sister, the scapegoat, was a petite blonde. When I asked for dance lessons I was told "we're not having you clumping round like a cart horse". Ouch.

In answer to answer member's question, I've had various therapies over the years. I managed to get some psychotherapy on the NHS (which was as validating as it was therapeutic). I also had some privately, which included EMDR. It was a great help, but I think having a good relationship with the therapist is as important as the modality they use. (I would add, I had a few rounds of CBT before I realised what was at the root of my problems, funnily enough I didn't find it very helpful).

My mother was constantly shaming me and my sister since I can remember. She was very overweight and obese at some point. She was obssessed with other people's appereances and bodies, she could be incredibly cruel crticising other people in front of us. I grew up with that awful voice in my head, as a teen I was convinced that the root of my unhappiness was my weight. I was an emotional eater (still am): I ate my emotions with a side of chocolate...
I was a little overweight as a child, and then I was perfectly fine but always anxious and always criticised by my mum, who never admited it: she had a phrase that me and my sister bitterly joked about: "well, if you didn't want my honest opinion, why would you ask me?". She also was her own cruelest critic.
Fast forward to now: I've been obese for almost a decade, and so is my sister. She is slimer than us, now. I joke about it with my (very supportive) husband: "well, mission accomplished, mum". DH doesn't find it funny, but dark humor saves me.
So... what do you think about that?

Next time I'll talk about my mother and presents, my mother and her birthdays, and my mother as a grandmother. I don't feel so alone after reading what many of you have posted.

I am in my fourth year of therapy now (over a period of 7 or 8 years). Therapy is useful if you want to get to the root of unhappiness or want to change things like the relationship with food (not accomplished yet). A lifetime of depression and isolation drove me into therapy. I didn't know 8 years ago that EVERYTHING had to do with my upbringing. I knew things had been bad but I didn't know how bad.

Therapy and all learning I did outside therapy made me understand how emotionally healthy people operate that neither I or my parents were emotionally mature. I understood that I had been abused and it brought me onto a path of healing. I don't just want to get away from my family but I want to make other changes so my life is actually worth living.

Therapy is helping me undo all the bad habits in my thinking and behaviour now. Hopefully I can undo my eating disorder one day too.

And yes, I credit my mother with my eating disorder. She made me believe I was a fat 12 year old when she more and more commented on my body. Discussed my body with her friend, asked me if I want to become even fatter, that we must be careful at my age now because it was the highest risk age of becoming fat, restricted my dinners to one slice of bread, randomly announced there would be no dinner some days because she'd eaten loads at a party and instilled a belief that men get the best bits of any food, need more food and leftovers are for the men in the house and they'd be offered them first. FUCK YOU.

I’m really struggling this weekend in particular with feelings of anger towards my NM.

For context my brother is also NC at the minute with her due to an incident that happened a few months ago. My brother has a young baby (my nephew) who I had for the afternoon earlier this week. I speak with my step dad regularly because we have a good relationship and I mentioned that I had my nephew for the afternoon, which he’s obviously mentioned to my NM. My NM has then text my brother and said “so you can let (me) have (nephew) for the afternoon but you can’t even send me a picture of him, why are you being so cruel”. I am just absolutely fuming, why is HE being so cruel?! She literally tried to get physically violent with him a few months ago!! I’m so so over her bullshit.

Hope you're ok @mamaxbear this is exactly how it gets you isn't it! I understand. It's good you've still got a good relationship with your siblings though x

Thank you @JustLaura, I am one of five and have relationships with all my siblings bar one, who is just like her so we just do not get on. It’s so frustrating, I just feel so much hate towards her at the moment x

My anger took a long time to subside, I think it’s a process. I mostly feel more repulsed by her behaviour now if that makes sense. Amazing how many of us had the crap about our weight or body image blasted at us, obviously another stereotypical trait of a toxic NM.

@SkylarkDay Mothers and Fathers. I overheard mine saying about how it was a good job they'd had 2 boys and 1 girl as they don't produce good looking girls obviously! I was about 13 at the time!!!!

@mamaxbear Same here but with my Brother. I can't forgive and forget though as there's been too much that has gone on over the years. It's over. I'm moving on.

@JustLaura thats so awful and terribly sad. All children should feel cherished. Some mothers are appalling. During lockdown someone we knew did a comical lockdown blog on FB where she basically took the Mickey out of her daughter who has Aspergers for laughs. Nicknamed her ‘Forest Gump’ and wrote loads of personal stuff about her. It absolutely turned my stomach as it reminded me of my mum. Thank goodness SM wasn’t around in my day!

My DM and DS have their birthdays within a few days of each other; last years was a "significant" birthday for them both. I went to visit (staying in a hotel), arranged an "experience" that we could all do together, took them (and other family members out) for a nice meal. We all seemed to enjoy it, but the entire jaunt cost a good few hundred pounds.

Fast forward to my birthday and I got NOTHING from DS. We don't normally give each other gifts, but there was no card, no acknowledgement at all - not even a whatsapp. Wow.

Now it's b'day time again. I've sent DS a card as I like having the high moral ground (tongue only partly in cheek there!) . I'd normally ring my DM and ask what she wants for her bday but not this time. I've posted an anodyne card and I thought I'd leave it at that.

My mum is pretty elderly. She is remarkably well for her age but does have one particular problem which affects her QoL; but the never-ending negativity about this is difficult to take. All I hear is how she CAN'T do anything (that's not actually true; certainly it has limited her but she has hobbies and friends that she is able to keep up with. She danced the night away at her bday party last year, health problems or no!). Despite that she is absolutely adamant that she doesn't need any help (she's wrong) and that all the advice and suggestions I've offered are useless (despite my dealing with this sort of thing all my professional life). If I ask her what she wants for her bday, all I'll get is a million reasons why anything I could think of would be no use to her. So there's that. But there's also the fact that I am still hurting from our big row, which brought up so much stuff, and I don't feel generous.

But I'm not sure I've got the balls to leave it at just a card. I will ring her on her birthday and I think I might get some edibles (not the CBD kind btw!! though maybe that would cheer her up, hahaha!) and stick them in the post.

I will read back and want to read back but not even the narc today but the golden one who can I point out also does not have any contact with out narc mum has done something so hurtful on me and on my child and it was so underhanded even my dad who is not the narc parent and only visits our country once a year seemed to be clearly 'in' on things. Im just in tears right now. Not for me, although yes I feel so hurt they chose to block me out of things but my child has certainly done nothing wrong. He cried last night saying goodbye to his grandad cos he wont see him again for at least 8 months and we had to say goodbye at the car. I find out today my brother orgaised a going away party for all of the rest of the family. We, me the only daughter in this country and my child the only fucking grandson in this country had to say goodbye to my father, my sons grandfather in a public place. And my brother has a fucking party in his home. Invites them assholes that hate me purely because of my mothers lies even though he has no contact with her either and our parents hate each other but my own father knew yesterday saying goodbye to me that he would be having this get together today and his only daughter in this country and only grandson were not invited. From my mothers side i nearly accept it now. But this is my dad. He knows what she has done. He has lied to me. I feel fucking worthless.