August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@User543211 I’m also lucky to have an amazing MiL. She’s wonderful plus had a cruel narcissistic mother herself so has been an absolute rock.

my advice would be to stand your ground, it might be the beginning of a new start x

I feel like the world brings us amazing MIL’s when we have shit mothers. My MIL is also amazing, she’s treated me like her own daughter since day one.

Haha, my MIL was a total witch who sided 100% wth her unemployed philandering alcoholic of a son!

(I do think that if I'd had a different experience of being "loved" as a child, I would have been able to make a much better choice of a partner as an adult -but hey ho).

@User543211 , I know exactly what you mean when you say that you can't imagine treating your daughter the way your mother treated you. I can't imagine it either (re me, obvs, not you, but maybe it wasn't so very different!) How can anyone WANT to hurt their child? How can they enjoy reducing them to tears on a regular basis? I mean, I know some of the theoretical reasons why, but emotionally I have no idea what it can possibly feel like to be that person. How can you NOT love and protect your daughter?** I dunno.

** I'm imagining my mother reading this and saying "But I DO love you! And I never tried to hurt you, you were just oversensitive!". And maybe in her head, she means it. I also imagine that that's a well worn script that most of us have heard.

@SadMary I'm starting to think it's only possible with a personality disorder. And then I'm wondering if all the adult children here had parents with personality disorders or if people without them are capable of it too and how that's possible. I think we aren't talking about parents here who got it wrong 'sometimes' and their child ended up with some 'issues' but we talk about systematic abuse that caused major mental health problems and related conditions in children.

Then I'm thinking that would be way too many people with personality disorders. But then I see some stats about the prevalence of narcissisn and other disorders and I believe it is somehow possible that society is entrenched with disordered people. Not the majority but more than one would imagine when walking down the road or looking around the office.

That last paragraph...

I remember all of her actions (even the worst ones) being excused with "But it's because I love you/I care! Do you want me not care? Do you???"

It was fucking terrifying for a young child and I always knew her "love" was conditional and it could be taken away(helped by long periods of silent treatment) , which only made me try harder and always fail miserably.

In my teens I finally kind of gave up and decided that I might as well have some fun and actually allow myself to be me and live how I want . Not the best choices ever, but at least I made them for myself.

Yes, imposter syndrome, totally! I have it for many areas of my life, it seems... I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint my DH once he realises that I'm not who he thinks I am, for example (we've been together for 13 years).
My oldest dc is in pre-school, and my second dc is just a baby.
I was aware of and working on these issues before becoming a mum, but since then everything I had understood on an intellectual level (I'm very much a nerd who has read every book about the topic), suddenly became like a bodily experience, like having a fresh wound.

I'm really struggling atm as she's visiting.. one more week to go. It's exhausting, and awkward and weird. Why do I do this to myself? Stupid FOG and some level of love/care.

@SkylarkDay thank you so much. This will make you laugh - I went LC last year ( as a result of the fallout when my sis went nc) and my mum got a job at my kids' nursery! Eventhough she doesn't like kids that much (though she's apparently an expert on their behaviour) and she hated the nursery owner after working with her previously (she hates most people). Talk about overstepping the boundary.
Well I've done it. I've told her I need some space. She's said she's sorry and that she doesn't know what she has done, she's grateful to be in our lives even though it breaks her heart that I don't want her there for the big things like holding my hand when I gave birth! We had a huge fallout about that at the time. We hadn't even hugged in years and she wanted to be at the birth?!
I feel better already but am aware this is going to be a huge up and down journey.
Glad to have this community and thank you all so much for your support.

Absolutely this. I really do believe that my mother genuinely thinks that she's always right. She honestly believes she can do no wrong. She truly has confidence that she did her best. I used to be weirdly proud of it. Like 'my mum had nothing and look how well I've turned out'.
She charged me rent and made me work every night and weeknd in the pub we lived in from age 14. I was so proud of this and the 'lesson' she was teaching me. I cringe when I look back now on how I thought this was a positive thing she did for me.

@User543211 they are like sadistic stalkers!! Well done on standing your ground. It’s a battle initially but you slowly find room to breathe and the peace starts creeping in!

Reading all your posts resonates so much with myself.

@user543211 I totally agree, they have this odd kind of delusion that they brought you up in the right way etc. Any of the abuse either didn't happen or they blame you for it eg. You spoke back etc.

@sadmary it absolutely is a script. I could also imagine my mum saying the same thing.

Had an odd conversation with my mum today. She invited herself over with no warning (not unusal). Anyway we were speaking in the garden and i mentioned a play date we had a few days ago and said that DS friend was a bit rude to him and telling him all his toys were rubbish. She then goes off on a rant about how kids now adays are awful and rude and it's because they know they have no consequences or can't be hit. She said it did her no harm being hit by her father and she respected him because he hit her. I replied well actually it's really not nice being hit. Because her and my dad used to hit me and my sister pretty hard. Sometimes I'd think to myself why did I deserve that for and be so upset. Anyway she said we'll it did me no harm. I just looked at her and walked off. She did not acknowledge how she had hit me growing up.
I felt quite emotional and upset that she really thought it was ok. That she didn't think to herself how much she terrified me growing up. Her temper and anger were awful.

Well done you for telling her you needed space. How do you feel?

It’s funny you mention about your birth - my mother was the same. She also tried to guilt trip me into having a gender reveal, even though we lived an hour and a half away. She told me I was selfish, I needed to do this one thing for her and “why can’t you just let off a canon in your back garden and FaceTime me”. She also used her tactic of bringing my dead dad into it, saying “well don’t forget your dads not here so I want to have these memories” 🤦🏻‍♀️ she also royally kicked off when we found out the gender of our baby because we didn’t call her and tell her first, we told my partners mum first. She told me as my mother she had a right to know first, along with other bullshit.

It is so comforting hearing that my experiences are actually really common, I used to wonder what I did so wrong to deserve such a dysfunctional mother.

@mamaxbear I feel really good today! I still feel anxious and sick at the thought of her turning up here today but overall I feel like I'm on a journey to a much happier place. Weird thinking I don't have to cram in seeing her this weekend.
I think lots of narc mothers go even more batshit when their daughters are pregnant! We found out the sex of our first and before she insisted I tell her which sex I'd prefer, telling me there was something wrong with me for not having a preference. She also rang me when I was overdue to tell me about still birth statistics and how I was risking my baby's life and all the doctors were wrong. I almost forgot as well she had a medical episode (she's an extreme hyperchondraic with anxiety) when I was 40 weeks and insisted I come and collect from hospital in the middle of the night because she was convinced the nurses were talking about her. She couldn't bear the amount of medical attention I was getting.

@User543211 my mum booked up for a round the world cruise with P&O when I told her I was pregnant. She totally disappeared for the last four/five months of my pregnancy and was obviously uncontactable back then, Dad duly followed. Slightly strange behaviour when your daughter tells you she’s expecting your first ever grandchild. She got back the same week I was due. I suppose at least I had peace, but it made me feel very rejected and unimportant at what is quite a daunting time.

Also the night my sister went into labour with her first baby, she couldn’t get hold of my parents. Mum had apparently turned her phone accidentally onto silent and didn’t hear the downstairs landline because she wears earplugs. Dad doesn’t turn his phone on ever! My husband and I headed up instead. It’s only when you look back years later you see the truth of the matter and how it’s all been maliciously planned. My mum spent the first half of my first pregnancy not mentioning it but telling me on repeat how excited she was for this world cruise to Australia, and then disappeared!!

The health dramas also seem to be a theme with narcs. I’ve recently had a large retrosternal thyroid growth removed, it was 10cm big. Whilst awaiting results to see if it was benign (thankfully it was), mum bombarded me with texts about her breast cancer diagnosis 15 years ago (caught very early and needed no chemo, just an operation & radiotherapy) telling me I’d probably get it too, it was highly aggressive, so I had better watch out. She even texted me articles on cancer she’d found on the internet. That was when I gave up on LC and went NC again. Who in their right minds tries to frighten someone about cancer when they’re waiting for pathology results? Especially when it’s a mother!

Longtime lurker, first time poster. I am the daughter of a narcissist mother and enabling father. After a lifetime of abusive behaviour from them and various failed attempts at low contact and no contact, I finally went permanently no contact more than a decade ago. I am fully supported by my partner, have been in long-term therapy with a wonderful specialist therapist, and it has been the right decision for me and my mental health.

The issue I have relates to my niblings. I have a wonderful and loving relationship with my brother, SIL, and niblings and I am an active part of their lives despite living in a different country. They do have a relationship with my parents but my brother and SIL have always respected and supported my decision to go NC and worked around it.

Over the last year or so the youngest nibling (8yo) has been asking questions about my lack of relationship with my parents. I have tried to explain at an age appropriate level that sometimes people don't get on and that means that they don't talk. My mother has told him that I did "bad things." I have consistently reaffirmed my love for him and emphasised that the lack of contact is not his fault. He's a clever and sensitive soul and my answers are not satisfying him. It's clearly bothering him. He's with me today and I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to address it further as I know it will come up. Any advice/suggestions on how to deal with this would be most welcome.

Hello, I’ve joined your thread before, under different user names. I’ve also lurked. Then I tried to not come here because it made it too raw. I’m back today just to put a chair at the back and sit silent until I’m ready. Thank you for having me.

@JaneFinn
Welcome. I will join you at the back for now as well if I may. Trying not to ruminate about it all at the moment but reading this thread is a constant source of sanity and solace .

Thanks. Just bookmarking the new thread. This has been and is so useful for me - especially in not feeling alone in it all.

I have made a breakthrough with my brother and his flying monkeys family by going NC a few years ago. I can now run into him at my mothers house without any anger. It’s definitely a process as initially the idea of him pre-occupied my thoughts when I first went NC. Then a lot of anger and sadness followed. Last time I saw him at my mothers house was over 6 months ago and I had to work on staying calm. This recent run in I literally felt nothing! Like running into an acquaintance I had a long time ago. Sharing here in case anyone else has gone NC and has occasional run ins with the person they’ve gone NC with. It is possible to come out the other end of all the anger and grief. It’s a long process so just stick with the firm NC stance - in my case it has also sent a strong message to not being available as a victim anymore.

I have achieved this with two brothers and am very happy to not have them in my or my children's lives. It’s empowering to look after yourself :)

@tonewbeginnings yes I found i became indifferent, zero thought, care or feelings. They are not a part of my life. They never really were but once I completely accepted it my life was easier and 100% less stressful.

This is what I'm waiting for, but it just isn't happening. If it did I'd be free... instead I guess it'll have to be once she's not here anymore. Weirdly enough I know I'll still be sad and upset, despite finally being free. Strange place to be in.

I am glad you’re feeling good. Did she turn up today? It really does sound like you’ve done the best for you!

I find indifference very slowly creeps in as the guilt seeps out. I’m not really angry anymore, more bewildered/confused by it all and a bit gobsmacked it took me so long to realise the situation. I think last time I went NC it was hard because I felt very guilty towards my Dad. But this time is different. Because I gave them a second chance it allowed me to see him as he really is. Obviously 6 years NC previously had taken my blinkers off and it was a bit of a shock if I’m being honest and I was repulsed how he fawned over her and clearly put her first, even when she was being absolutely poisonous to us again. Now I occasionally get a pang, like when a piece of music comes on the radio he liked etc, and I feel grief and sadness, but this time it’s grieving the fact my image of him was mostly an illusion, he wasn’t who I thought he was.

@User543211 @SkylarkDay I will never understand it. Mine was in floods of tears as I hadn't named my child a 'family' name and because I had a high risk pregnancy I chose not to announce it until I was over the 5 month mark. My Mum could not understand my decision. I had to laugh when she said all the family would support me.

When I gave birth to a healthy baby she was looking for any issues all of the time, implying how could this have worked out for me! Even at age 2 she was asking about milestones being met and did not believe me when I said all good.