August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

User

re your comment
"My mum has messaged me 6 times before 6 this morning asking for more 'contact' with my children. We have a date set in a couple of weeks where I will be there as well. The way she is talking makes it sounds like we are co-parents sorting contact honestly - she wants an 'informal plan'! What can I say to her?"

Do not tolerate such levels of harassment; turn your phone off but if you do not want to do that block her ways of being able to contact you.

Tell her to stick her plan where the sun does not shine. Do not further subject your children to this serial abuser; she will harm your children in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed. Your forthcoming meeting should be cancelled also because she is not an ex, silly woman blathering on about an informal plan. No, she basically wants to tell you what she wants and expects to get it too. You are the parent and she does not get automatic access to her grandchildren.

I would further lower all contact levels going forward to zero. If she is too toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too.
.

Genuineweddingone

Maintain radio silence, do not give a response.

Your mother is batshit mad.

Here I am, reading all of your stories: we don't know eachother, of course, but I genuinely feel a wave of emotion when I read you. Sending my best wishes to all of you 🙏💐

(I've been wondering about @Pantaloons99 : how are you, how are things going with your health and family situation?
Also @SadMary who I credit for reminding me about my musical journey: hope you're well.)*
Good night to all of you!

*I hope this isn't intrusive, I'm sorry 🙏 I was just re-reading the beginning of the thread, and then remembered your stories.

I don’t know about you guys but one of the worst things about coming from these families is that when you are struggling and you are sat on your own at home really just needing a hug, someone to give you some hope, there is no one, you really are alone. Every now and then I sit and I imagine arms around me telling me it’s ok and I know it’s never coming and it’s never been. It’s really hard having only yourself to push you through hard times.

@Happyfarm it is. I feel the same. I'm going through another wave of grief. Last night, I not only just had some images in my head about an incident in childhood but I actually knew how I felt at the time. I really missed having someone there for me. To not just be alone every time as a child and now.

I hope you manage to comfort yourself at times.

I used to be able to just push on through it but I’m becoming more and more tired. We aren’t meant to be alone I don’t think.

@Happyfarm no, don't think we are supposed to push through it. It's what he had to do as children, but it made us ill. Apparently we are supposed to have the skills to self soothe, but obviously never learnt how, so tend to just feel lost.

@Happyfarm I understand. They really have screwed me over in life too.

I am very slowly taking back control now but I still have blips almost every week where I end up doing things I don't want to. I've ended up people pleasing and not looking after myself.

I've minimised contact and won't be going no contact unless something major happens. My parents are elderly and in ill health. My sibling has taken over for them though and is the golden child who doesn't get asked to do anything. I have no contact with my sibling but I'm 'instructed' by my parents by my sibling.

Memories are a big problem. I now try to distract myself as soon as I go on that pointless path.

I need to concentrate on the present and the future.

It's hard.

@Twatalert

'Lost' is the word isn't it. I don't feel as though I belong. Even at work I feel like an outcast. It's effected every part of my life.

@JustLaura Yes, feeling like the outcast. Not being able to tell if I actually am the outcast in all settings of if it's in my head. It doesn't help that I feel I have a lack of social skills. I was a quiet child, but I wasn't born quiet, I had just been criticised, shamed and intimmidated into shyness. Then when I left home I had to learn to make conversation with people and I can do that on a superficial level for a few minutes. But longer than that or In a group I struggle. 'Why would anyone be interested in what I have to say' etc. etc. Then I literally don't know what to say or respond. I have no idea how people do it.

Every few years I will meet someone with whom conversation just flows. This is how I acquire friends (usually, I get acquired by them, again.. I don't know how to pursue relationships).

I think the final acceptance that my parents could not be relied on, was what gave me the push to go NC there was never any support, anything to fall back on, I couldnt miss what I had never had, that fear of being cast adrift, I had always been adrift. I was giving up the illusion of support going NC it was always my parents who needed the support.

same.. always felt like the parent to my mother, even as a child, listening to her woes about my step father.. and now she’s poorly, she wants to lean on me and she wants me to take care of her. A good friend of mine thinks she is SEN, it has never occurred to me growing up.. but possibly she is.. but regardless of whether she is or not, there has be zero support for me my whole life.. I’ve basically been on my own since the age of 6..
do you feel guilt though going NC.. I’ve been waking up in the night with terrible anxiety.. but during the day I’m ok with my decision. What’s that about?

Yes. I have had to learn how to behave if that makes sense. I lack the ability to start conversation and a couple of people have actually said "but what do you WANT to do?" and that completely throws me! I wasn't given choices or options growing up.

It's worst for me when I hear people chatting about family events or that they've been socialising with their siblings. In my family I'm either ignored or it's blatantly advertised to me that it's happening but I haven't received an invite.

I'm not no contact but I am guarded about my life.

On an occasion when they found out something about me, they made a big scene about how they should have been told and how they could have supported me....

They've never supported me, only ever belittled me on every level.

I struggle every day with things like that. I try to distract myself but when I'm basically having to care for them and do errands, I always think "Would you do this for me?" and the answer is always "No they wouldn't" in my head.

Then I think they're elderly and in ill health and I know I'd feel worse going NC rather than putting up with the same old behaviour for the next years of their life.

@Kelwar the first 2 months were really hard with guilt because they were elderly and frail, I also felt sorry for my dad [mum was real full blown, grandiose, spiteful narc] until the lightbulb moment that dad was also extremely manipulative to get attention and sympathy. The anger, anxiety and hurt faded out to complete indifference.
6 seems to be the common age of being parentified. I was 6 when I caught my mum in bed with my uncle and I became her emotional dumping ground.

I am struggling today.

I go from ok to being angry to being upset. Almost in a grief like phase.

I keep thinking about the health of my elderly parents. I have basically been doing errands, household chores etc for them since they became housebound 6 years ago. They can't leave the house unaccompanied.

Sibling leaves everything for me to do under the argument of they have an important job (whereas I just have a stress free job!!!!! was actually said!!!!!) and 1 extra child than I have.

I wonder about what if they need to go into care? Years ago Sibling said I am to give up my job to care for them (this was when they first became ill). When I said no I was offered money. I said it's not about money.

Then I was told by my Parents 'they have yet to decide on their will' implying I will be cut out for not conforming to their expectations. Sibling loved that as they witnessed it being said.

I would not be surprised if that happens regardless of everything I do for them. The 'sting in the tail' or the last 'hurrah'. I've thought about this a lot today but I thought I feel foolish now so if that happens I will still feel foolish so no change there!

I love them both but cannot trust them or my sibling and I certainly cannot talk freely around them.

I have reduced my visits to my parents and phonecalls from them by about 50% in recent months and I know they are bad-mouthing me for it.

I only ever accidentally run into my sibling. No calls, texts etc. No cards or presents - even for the children.

I worry about my Parents mental health too. They seem sad. It can't be good to only go out once a week when I take them on my day off work. When I asked them to suggest to the golden child if they could take them out once a week too (just a couple of hours out would be good), there was a host of reasons why not (needs a rest after work, stressful day etc). Yet they always find the time to go x, y and z with their in-laws and brag about it.

Sorry to vent. Like I say, some days I can handle it better than others.

I wonder what it is about that age that makes a parent feel that we don’t need them so much..
you poor thing finding your mum in that situation.. that’s shit.
you and I seem to have a similar situation, my step father was brutal to my mum as we grew up.. I hated him and the way he treated her and felt sorry for her believing she was the victim.. as I have grown older I can see clearly she is no victim and could potentially have been the problem most of the time.. she still always put him doesn’t regardless of how awful he was.. and she’s a fabulous actress.. she’s very mean.. a total narcissist. She has nice moments too.. they both do, but usually when they have had loads of wine and their fun side comes out.. sober they are awful people

Your sibling is a total div… please look after yourself and your own mental health.. you don’t trust them or your sibling like I don’t mine.. my brother has left all the caregiving to me too.. I’m not doing it anymore.. they are all his responsibility now.. he’s swerved the shit for many years while I have picked up the slack. I’ve give NC with my brother.. he’s a toxic as my mother is.. I don’t want any of them in my life.. my focus is on my own children. Look after YOU.. just because your parents are elderly and housebound.. it’s not your responsibility to alleviate their sadness.. i don’t know what your history is but I’m guessing it’s not great as you are on here. In life, you reap what you sow.. if you weren’t loved and nurtured by your parents how can you possibly give them the same care now?

@JustLaura maybe you said it before, but why are you looking after your parents? Would social services for adults (what is it called?) not take over?

I'm amazed you say you love them. It's no judgement but it always amazes me when people here say they love their parents. I don't love mine, and while this made NC easier I keep wondering how the hell this happened.

People, generally speaking, are programmed to love their parents, no matter how crap they actually are.

JustLaura

You've received the Special Training since childhood to put their needs first with your own dead last.

I would now involve their council's Adult Social department re your parents.
(My brother has now moved to the other end of the country, partly I think to avoid caring responsibilities in their dotage. But I am not going to do this for them either).

I would drop the rope completely here with regards to your parents; they are unlikely to feel any guilt, let alone remorse, in how you have and are being treated by them and your sibling. You're taking them out on your day off, I would stop doing this now. They remain ungrateful to you and I am not surprised they've used their will as a means of both an implied threat for non compliance and control.

Continue to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

I have now started a brand new Stately Homes thread on these Relationship pages as this current thread will fill up completely.

Please post on this new thread from now.

TIA AtM

Thanks @Twatalert it's not that simple. The very most Social Services would offer for care in the home is 4 x 15 minutes throughout the day. They only do personal care. No food shopping, paying bills, getting xyz, taking them out etc. Then the cost is another matter.

There has been moments of 'good times' that I remember but I would say the good times are 5% of my life.

It all seemed to turn when my golden child younger sibling got to about 15. I am virtually NC with my sibling. We only very occasionally run into each other. Seen them once in the last 5 years! My sibling seems to have taken over as the instigator of bad mouthing me or telling my parents what they should be saying to me.

They appear to not want to take any of his time to the detriment of me. It's long been said in my family that girls look after their elderly parents. I know this is wrong by the way.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I have looked into care options. Firstly the maximum is 4 x 15 minutes home calls. It doesn't seem to be suitable for what they need. Then there is the extortionate cost.

I can just about cope with the revised visits/calls but I can't cope with the continual putting me down etc etc but it all seems to come from my sibling saying it to them to say to me IF that's the truth.

Yes, the implied threats about that and I'll never speak to them again hurt.

I don't want to stop seeing them but I don't need all the drama from my sibling and the bad mouthing me to others.

There's no happy ending here.

@JustLaura ah ok, so they'd basically need to go into a home and then there would be the issue of cost etc.

Yeah I'm with you. Even the 'good times' are now clouded by what I have come to understand about my dysfunctional family. And they weren't truly good, carefree times. I don't remember not having to worry about anything. Don't think it happened. So they weren't really good times as I just couldn't be a child.

Thanks for the new thread @AttilaTheMeerkat ! See you all over there!