August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@mamaxbear i can resonate with you so much. My mum also would put me down openly infront of my kids and husband to the point where they would be joining in to appease her, I took it all because I was so used to my family dynamics and used to being belittled. Feeling anxious and stressed around her was also normal because I was terrified of upsetting her or to make her angry, but it’s only once I stepped back and began healing myself it became clear she is nasty and angry woman and knows nothing but being mean to others. I am right at the beginning of my NC journey and so far the anger is making it easy because I never want to be around her or the siblings that are enmeshed and just as negative as she is.

the most freeing thing is that we get to a point where we realise we don’t have to accept this just because they are family, we can walk away and experience peace.

@User543211 oh that text exchange brings back memories of the type of conversations I used to have with my NM before I went NC. For me it’s the inability to see someone’s else point of view but at the same time dumping her views, thoughts and feelings on you and declaring them yours. It’s crazy making!! I had a lifetime of that crap (and lots more) and eventually I just couldn’t cope anymore. Once I realised the toxicity I couldn’t unsee it. I agree 100% that grey rock is so draining, I think it’s unhealthy (for me, at least) long term, I felt I was cracking up. Being in the company of a narc is absolutely withering, I totally understand your need to go NC.

@Supamum3 I think that’s exactly what it is, once you start to heal yourself you realise how dysfunctional the dynamics are. My partner hasn’t ever really liked her because of the way she speaks to me, he always hates how little she’s been involved with our daughter.

because I don’t live the same chaotic life she does, I’m called a “miserable boring bitch” - her words 🤦🏻‍♀️

this is powerful…

@mamaxbear agree with your comment about being relieved, the relief of being NC with my Mum is overwhelmingly wonderful!! People tell you how sorry they are if it comes out you’re NC with your mum, but it’s a wonderful feeling after so many torturous years being physically (as a child) and mentally attacked by that vicious old lunatic. She has the ability to make me feel like a child living in fear again, even now, plus so many triggers and she knows just how to set them off. Thankfully that’s finally over now I’m NC. This sounds a terrible thing to say but when I hear she’s finally gone, I’ll sadly feel nothing but relief.

@User543211 yes moving is a big thing, we did it a couple of years after going NC. But as I said before, my husband and daughter were up for a change anyway and it was just as my daughter left primary school so tied in nicely. You might not do these things immediately, but they’re always options for the future if needed. Definitely recommend doing whatever is necessary to have some peace and get your life back x

@SkylarkDay I’m so glad you’ve said that about when she’s gone you’ll feel relief. People always say “but you’ll miss her when she’s not here anymore” and it’s so invalidating.

I absolutely agree, I find it a very hurtful thing for people to say as it shows they really don’t understand the situation and the seriousness of why we’ve had to do it, it really does invalidate everything. Also when people say,ah but she’s your mother! Like it automatically makes her special and not responsible for her actions. The fact she’s my mother makes it so much worse!

@SkylarkDay definitely, I hear you. My mother likes to tell me these things never happened, or that I’m dramatising everything. I have such awful memories of the things she said and done to me, she probably doesn’t remember because she was drunk half of the time. I’ve actually requested my social care documents from the local council of where I grew up as a child, social services were involved more than once so it’ll be interesting to see what comes back.

I personally found grey rock harder than NC. I am high functioning autistic and having to pretend to be someone else was exhausting. I felt like a fake, it was mentally damaging for me. If I have to censor every word and action around someone I would rather not be near them, it is no different to walking on eggshells.

@mamaxbear anything that isn't drama fueled, arguments and interference is boring to narcs, they feed off disharmony it is their oxygen. They love triangulation, setting siblings/people against each other, getting others to do their dirty work, flying monkeys, gossip, I don't know where these fuckers find the energy!

you know what you’ve just hit the nail on the head. I’m boring because I can’t be arsed with the drama!! I like my peace. If only that energy was put into being a better parent 🤔

In a way I'm lucky because we live in different countries, so most contact is over the phone. I regularly call her (FOG). While she can come up with some real corkers , they're true to form so I'm used to it. I still get annoyed every now and then , but it's shit I expect. I also tend to keep most calls incredibly bland, very little info(It's fucking exhausting making sure I don't slip ) and mostly weather, small talk or me just mhm mhm while she talks about stuff I don't give a shit about.

She hasn't been truly unhinged in years(more than 20) , which is why I had a proper WTF moment. I'm still in it tbh and can't believe that happened. Or why. Or how.

She's visiting and she hated my indoor top. You know , the kind that's old as dirt, kinda manky, kinda holey , definitely ugly but comfy as fuck. Since I refused to change/throw it away she ripped it off me . From top to bottom. Who does that? In what world is that something you do ? In what world is that ok?

Ofc she was the teary eyed ,sulky OMG I'm so hurt after. I refused to apologise or engage and just carried on as usual. Just as bad I guess as I didn't confront her or stand up for myself , but it's a really awkward situation since she's not leaving until the 18th.

Apologies for the brain dump. I did say I needed a rant.

@NowImNotDoingIt dear goodness. Yes, it makes total sense why you would of course think what on absolute earth is going on here after every interaction with her.

It's so exhausting. That's the part I hate. Knowing you have to think through every word, every piece of information etc.

I'm incredibly unwell with conditions that won't improve and I have to hide and pretend I'm ok when I actually can hardly sit up and leave my house. I believe they'd probs rather me dead so this is incredibly painful. I totally hear you.

I’ve often wondered how/why they can be bothered and where does the energy come from. But then in their narcissistic world they are the star of the show, centre of the universe and obsessively need constant drama playing out around them to give them relevance. They see themselves as the sun, with all us little pathetic people spinning around them. So my take is without this happening, they feel irrelevant. It must be exhausting trying to manipulate people constantly!

I have to hide because it all becomes about her , how worried she is, how stressful it all is for her bla,bla ,bla so I have to manage her emotions and "pain" and have to be the strong , blasé one (despite internally shitting myself) or how it's all my fault for doing x,y,z and not doing a,b,c . So as much as possible I avoid telling her anything to do with my health. Nearly slipped once , and I was mentally kicking myself. How fucked up is that?

I'm reading everything and absorbing it. It still amazes me when I come across other people stories, how profoundly I feel them even if they are different than mine.
These last posts about grey rock being exhausting... oh my...
When I have the mental space, I'll write something more, but I still can't bring myself to it: I feel like I'd be exaggerating... You know how it goes, it's all in my mind because I have a very intense imagination!

All the drama and outbursts by the narc are just a way for them to get supply from their victim. Every time someone reacts it is supply for them. Every time you try to explain etc. is supply for them.

I often wonder at what point in life did she become like this. Was she always like this? Did something happen to her to make her like this? From what she’s told me, her childhood wasn’t the best but I never saw the version of my nana that she described. My mums, mum was always so kind and nurturing to me and my siblings. She passed in 2017 and I miss her incredibly.

@mamaxbear this kind of trauma is inflicted to someone as a very young child. I think mostly it is due to parents but there can be other environmental or genetic factors. It doesn't need an obviously horrible parent to create a narcissist. Some are created because they are spoilt to the extreme, which is also a form of abuse btw.

Also, narcissists can operate because they have different personas so it's possible that what your mother described is correct and you only ever saw a very subtle version of it. I consider my mother a covert narcissist. Unless you live with her for extended periods of time you have no idea. Literally no idea. If the mask slips otherwise people put it down to 'nobody is perfect' and 'everyone makes mistakes'. It is incredibly hard for people to imagine what damage this does to a child or why my childhood was like a very bad dream.

I feel the same. I control my outward responses, but inside I feel sick and shitty about myself. I find it such hard work.

This is what I believe and tell myself. But then I wonder if i'm just being weak/stupid/a doormat and taking the easy way out.

I’ve just been doing some research on narcissistic mothers. It’s wild how my mother ticks every single box. I truly believe it wasn’t just me having my own child, but my partner that made me realise what she was. I remember me and her having an argument via messages and she was calling me all sorts of nasty things, which at the time I thought was normal. So I was explaining the situation and argument to my partner and he was like that’s not normal, so I laughed and was like surely you argue with your mum? He said yes we have our disagreements, but she doesn’t call me names and tell me I’m dead to her… that’s the moment it clicked for me. I was like shit, this really isn’t normal.

No you are not of course. Its so common for abuse survivors to think this. It's really hard to unlearn.

Thanks for the new thread. I'm quite overwhelmed right now. I usually keep up. Hope everyone is finding their way through however they can.

@mamaxbear it’s interesting what you say about when you first realised.

For me I think it was when I had my own daughter 18 years ago. Becoming a mother myself and feeling such love, protectiveness and care for this little vulnerable helpless person made me realise how seriously wrong my own childhood had been. It was like someone had taken a blindfold off and I felt so stupid for not seeing it before. I always knew something was wrong, but Dad always excused her behaviour as ‘just mum’ whilst he comforted and placated her, and I trusted him even if she only ever terrified me. Even now, years later, I suddenly remember things and it’s like I’m seeing the reality of it for the very first time. It almost feels like how people describe being deprogrammed after coming out of a cult. You suddenly see the madness, manipulation and toxicity and how you were played and can’t quite believe it. It’s a a real head scramble for sure and it’s a slow process recovering and coming to terms with it all. No wonder we all suffer with so much self doubt as adults.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thanks for the new thread and your always sensible posts. I've immersed myself in learning about narcissism (thanks for posting my links, I have loads more now!) but continue to be shocked by the devastation narcs cause in the lives of people they profess to love.

Mine finally died a month ago. I hadn't seen her in 3 years. Her side of the family cut me off; someone on my dad's side contacted me since, she had no idea how things were as my "mother" controlled communications. "Mother" lied to my cousin as to what tipped me over the edge, implied I got annoyed at a "remark" and stopped speaking to her and also didn't want a relationship with any of the family. Cousin is now really sad she didn't check with me, but to be fair she has a lot of big things going on in her life. The aftermath of "mother's" death will go on a while. I have a "sibling" (both adopted) who people knew was horrendous, but despite the horrific way he organised the funeral, people on her side of the family are staying in contact. With narcs, you're in or out, and as I'm out, he's in.

Looking back, my biggest regret is that I tried to be the good daughter. Despite all the times she proved she didn't care about me, I kept trying. Despite all the times she proved she didn't care about my kids, I kept trying. The damage she has done is immeasurable. I wish I had cut the bitch out decades ago.

Can I point out to people reading here, I have never come across a case where someone has ended up with a happy, normal, truly loving & reciprocal relationship with their narcissist parent. At best, people have learned to "manage" a relationship so the abuse and stress they suffer is limited. I would ask, is that any way to live?