August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

This thread is where I am always pointed to whenever I post something about my toxic mother! Hey, I’m the daughter of a narcissistic mother and am currently no contact, with no plans to ever speak to her ever again. Most recently my mother states she is a good mother because she’s cooked me dinner when I have been round to her house!!! 🤦🏻‍♀️

Thank you for this thread 💐

@MsNeis appreciate you signposting to this 🙏

Thanks Atilla x

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for the new thread.

Thnx @AttilaTheMeerkat

I am the child of what I suspect are both narcissists. My mother also has additional mental health issues that are undiagnosed. She destroys all relationships she has ever had.

My father is more manageable and a good person in many ways be can't extricate himself from ever not being the victim in any situation.

One of my siblings killed himself at a young age and my other sibling is a nice person but has fits of rage which are scary. He also blames me for leaving my mother when I was 14 years old and going to live with my father on the other side of the world.

@PumpkinPiloter that's so sad. It's a difficult legacy to live with when one takes their life.

Do you still have contact with the family? I do feel for the dads that are the weaker ones in the dynamic because of the Narc matriarch. It's frustrating at the same time though I imagine because there's going to be alot of enabling going on on some level if they decide not to leave.
I have read alot recently about the narc family cult, it is fascinating to me.

My dad took his life when I was a teenager. Mum and older sibling are narc/ sociopathic. I'm not. I've gone from golden child growing up to flying monkey at times to the scapegoat now I believe. I have had alot of counselling to learn all this over many years. The minute you see it and start trying to pull away, you're the scapegoat/ bad guy in the messed up family cult system.

Hi everyone and thanks for the new thread. I'm here this evening for some practical advice....I think I'm finally ready to go nc with my narc mother after something today. Nothing huge but a straw camel moment for me.
My sister is already nc but lives quite far away. I live in the same small village as my mum.
So I've read lots of advice that says I don't need to tell her I'm going nc. But I bump into her regularly - what do I do or say if and when this happens? She will create drama, cry in the supermarket car park or whatever. Or do I just tell her now? My sister thinks it I do this she'll keep a better distance whereas just ignoring her with no explanation will result in a bigger rage.
I'm so close guys. I almost feel excited. I feel like I need to ride this wave while it's here.
Any advice or experience welcome.

@User543211 Personally I'd tell her for my own sake and peace of mind. It may feel easier to ignore her from then on as you have made your boundary clear and perhaps wont feel you 'should' tell her as you already have. Any issue she's got with it is only hers to deal with. You will have done your part.

Are you able to somehow prepare for the impact.. disconnect the door bell, block her as soon as you have told her...maybe get a big shop so you definitely won't bump into her for a week or so.

I have been totally surprised mine did not kick off. I almost suspect they do 'the right thing' for now so they can tell people they have behaved impeccably. This is literally the first time in my life I have not received pushback for any boundary I am setting. I'm so confused. Part of me thinks they may expect I will snap out of it and the rage will come when they realise I don't.

@Twatalert that's interesting and sounds like something my NM could do. My sister going nc last year totally blind-sided her and she's been on good behaviour since then with me as she knows what she could lose (she claims to love my two children).
Another complicating factor is my adopted younger sister (16) who still lives there. She's been through so much already, has SEN and struggles socially (NM has done nothing to support her despite claims). My going NC will set off a bomb and make her life at home misery. I'm one of the only people she has regular contact with and a positive influence (NM os constantly falling out with people and negative about everyone). I feel sick at the thought of not seeing her and 'leaving' her there alone. I visit with my kids a couple of times a week and it's her highlight. How can I go NC and maintain some kind of relationship with my poor sister?

@User543211 this is incredibly hard. 16 is still so young. Is she able to meet you outside the house or come to yours? I think you'd have to tell her what's happening between you and your mother and find a different routine.

I have a similar dilemma with my niece (still a child). I don't want to burst her bubble but at the same time I want her to have an example that you do not need to maintain relationships with people that treat you poorly. But she's still too young to make that decision with her grandparents/my parents and my sibling is just wet.

@User543211 is it an option for you to go the lowest level grey rocking? As you live in the same village I feel the fall out could be very difficult if any paths cross in any way.

When you confront a narcissist or abandon them, the reaction will be severe and the smear campaign, all sorts could be intense. If she has hidden her true self well and played victim well enough, you won't be believed sadly if there's any community chat/gossip. It's possible she'll tell the whole world how awful you've been cutting her off when she's tried so hard just to be a good mum 🙄.

If you aren't familiar with grey rock, there's alot of advice online. It could begin with just not contacted her at all and let her initiate via texts say. Remain pleasant but you reveal nothing. It's short non descript answers, no emotion at all. Start asserting boundaries. You don't need to say this is my boundary. You just do it.

Alot depends on the type of person she is. If narc, there are various types and presentations so alot depends on this.

I think you want to tell her you're going NC as a screw you to her. It might just be worth trying this technique out first and then work towards NC once you've got used to this emotional distance.

@Pantaloons99 this is actually very good advice. Try low contact/grey rock first, also to get yourself used to it. Cutting the emotional tie can bring up all sorts of feelings for you and it might be good to take and process that in small doses. Up to you really how you feel during interactions with her.

For me this did not work as I will never feel safe around my parents, because they aren't safe people and I regress to a very young version of myself. It hindered my growth and transformation of my life.

But looking back I did actually phase them out , which wasn't part of some plan. It just happened the more I understood this family system and narcissism and my desire to have anything to do with them just went.

Dipping my toe in. I should go NC , but I can't, so it would just be a lot of ranting/moaning/wtf moments with no resolution in sight which I suppose might get quite frustrating for you guys. At least I finally posted. Baby steps.

@NowImNotDoingIt this is why grey rock is really helpful. But before that you have to be at some point of acceptance. If you're still feeling alot of ' I just can't believe she did this ' then there's more work to do on accepting the reality of who this person truly is and fully embracing the FACT they'll never be what you want, need or hoped for.

I found reading alot about it, counselling and speaking on groups like this helped me really see how appalling certain behaviour really was. That then resulted in a great deal of anger. Seeing the truth of all of it clearly without denial plus the anger regards how appalling it is to do this to someone ( your kids) has been enough at last to enable me to grey rock. I am incredibly vulnerable with health issues so a complete NC isn't something I'm able to do. Grey rock has been very helpful to help manage the emotional turmoil that this can bring up.

I have learnt a lot from various tik tokers. I had to almost study this stuff to get to a point of acceptance. I had read about narcissism for a while but i had to actually understand covert narcissism and then consider that this is what my mother may be. I mean, I will never know but this is the label I have given her.

Another important realisation was that I do not love my parents and that they don't love me. So that's that and that's the end of it.

@NowImNotDoingIt you can rage and ramble as much as you want. It isn't all about NC here.

@User543211 when I first went NC I just blocked everything. It was hard though because we lived close by, she appeared on the doorstep and also popping into town was hugely stressful in case I saw her. However with my Mum if I had told her face to face she’d have gone hysterical and got violent. That’s her default setting as it usually gets her what she wants and disarms people, plus she’s as mad as a bucket of eyeballs. To be fair we then ended up moving away, as it was too stressful being close by, I was on eggshells the whole time. I now live 90 mins away from all my family and it’s for the best as I’m NC with parents, LC/grey rock with the rest and I have my own happy separate existence in my own area.

So for you, I don’t know how you’d do it when you’re very close by, even in the same small village! It’s a difficult one. If you just block her etc, you’re probably going to bump into her. Maybe as others have suggested, phasing her out bit by bit highlighting boundaries and strictly enforcing them might work better, especially as you’re worried about your younger sister. It’s not an easy one to just go NC when you’re so close.

Thanks for your insights everyone.
I have been grey-rocking for several years and she calls me out on it. It angers her and then I get passive aggressive messages eg. She invites us over several times a week but I'll only accept one. Then I get a text 'I guess that's another week of me not seeing the children and missing out on them when their other grandparents see them so much' (this is true because their other grandparents are amazing).

This is yesterday's convo. Possibly outing but I don't care. For context I'm 35, been with my husband for 15 in which time she's never liked him, so her comment about it him below is funny really. I don't usually react like I have here but I was so pissed off yesterday. I've told her multiple times we don't want a dog (shed also going to breed her own dog and has been hinting at me having one though she never says it outright you know? Just sends me pics of stud dogs etc). There are so many reasons we don't want a dog now but I don't need to explain those to anyone! I'm so upset that she can't even understand this and listen to what I've been telling her.

Her: xxx's springer spanie having 10 pups. Her bitch is super kind and calm. Xx (pic of scan attached)

Me; That's great x

Her: one of xxx's dog pups would be a great family dog. And (my dh) likes Spaniels. They keeping one or two back but sure would love you to have one xxx

Me: we don't want one, thanks. Plenty of time in the future for a dog but now isn't the time for us x

Her: I know you would not listen to me but a dog is a wonderful thing to have around. Always so happy to see you, gets you out walking even on the wettest day and help heal all your heart break after losing (our 2 dogs who died is extremely traumatising circumstances in Feb). But that is all I will say. Your decision xx

Me: what do you mean you know I wouldn't listen to you?

Her: you never ask my opinion about anything ever...
I just thought a dog would be a lovely plus for your family. I could not do without mine xx

Me: A dog is a huge thing and it's our decision so I don't need to ask your opinion. I have told you several times we don't want a dog at the moment and I've just said thanks but no thanks.

Her: Of course.
I just wanted to reserve one as a young untraumatised dog is a lot easier than a couple of rescues. You were very keen to have a dog before but sorry for interfering.

Sorry for the long one but I guess I'm seeking validation for wanting to go nc after this (and years of other shit). Grey rock is draining me. It worked for a while but I now find it hard work and like it's affecting other areas of my life.

@User543211 - grey rocking only works for people you don't have to see or deal with very often. Like running into a person you don't like at a family function or some other event. There is another technique called Yellow Rock which is a slightly different approach.

Disengaging and practising emotional detachment is really important. It takes a lot of effort and personal work, including a lot of learning and, if you can, therapy.

Another tip is to NEVER ask them a question. "Why did you say/do that?" etc. Any kind of question at all. Do not engage.

If you are unable to go NC because it's impossible to avoid a person, another option is to say, "I don't want to be around you. It makes me feel really stressed. I want to be left alone."

You do not have to answer text messages and you can block if you want to. It's your decision, not theirs.

@User543211 grey rock and LC were never an option for me. My mother saw it as a door to be kicked down and it made her more angry and toxic. I desperately tried it when I gave them a second chance after my Dad’s stroke, but she was almost vibrating with rage about it everytime we had contact. So NC was and is the only way. LC works ok with my siblings because firstly they have sympathy for the situation as they understand, secondly I get the impression they also want LC as me calling time on my mother is quite traumatic for them as they’re still in contact. We respect each other but there are a lot of complicated feelings so I think it suits us all.

I think you have two choices if you want to definitely go NC, you’ll either have to tell her directly and keep that line if/when you bump into her, or as I did, move further away. I know that seems a massive thing to do, but it was vital for me to reclaim my life and my mental health I honestly felt I was on the edge of a breakdown. It’s been one of the best things we did. Luckily husband and daughter were ready for a change anyway so it’s been good for us all, plus they don’t have to put up with my lunatic mother or me being driven to madness.

Hi all, I’ve recently gone NC with my mother. She’s very abusive, manipulative and toxic, this isn’t the first time I have gone NC but this time feels different. I don’t see any hope for us rekindling our relationship in the future. There are so many unforgivable things she has done and said, since I became a mum myself I just see her and her behaviour in a completely different light. She blames me for the lack of relationship she has with my daughter, when the truth is she just never put the effort in or bothered. She says I use my daughter as a weapon against her, but why would I let my daughter see someone who speaks about me in the most vile ways? AND see somebody she actually doesn’t really know. She never asks for my mother, never ever mentions her or asks to see her. She’s three in September and is very aware of who her family are, she has a great relationship with my in-laws. My mother has beat me up as a child, dragged me down the stairs, verbally abused me and would create horrendous atmospheres in our house. She would scream and shout most days and on weekends would binge drink and get into physical altercations with her partners, meaning we witnessed a lot of DV and police/social services were involved. If there is anything I have promised myself, it’s that I will never be the shitty parent she was and still is, and I will never be like her. She’s horrible.

@mamaxbear I'm so sorry all of that happened to you. You are breaking the cycle and being so strong, protecting yourself and your daughter. How do you feel now you've stopped contact?

Honestly I feel relieved. I always felt so anxious speaking with her and she would just make me feel like I was a teenager again, being so afraid of upsetting her. My life is much less complicated without her in it, she brings nothing but drama. It is sad because who wouldn’t want a relationship with their mother, but unfortunately that’s just not realistic for me. My dad died when I was younger too and I have very little family, but the bottom line is is that me, my partner and my daughter are happy!

@Sicario thanks so much for that. I don't normally ask any questions but I'll be honest, I was looking for a fight yesterday so that I could find an 'excuse' to go nc which is pathetic.
Previously, if something like this happened nm would call me selfish, accuse me of not loving her blah blah. She won't do this anymore as she's scared I'll do what my sis has done by going nc.
I think I could grey rock and emotionally detach indefinitely if I didn't see her so often. She's so entangled in my life. Any effort to reduce contact will send her into a rage and one of her WhatsApp essays.
@SkylarkDay I would happily move to a city near us which would be enough, but my husband works walkable distance from our house and works 50 hours a week, so commute time on top of that would really impact family life. I think if I go NC then he might consider it more seriously though. Or maybe just go nc and see what happens.