August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Yes, I think the realisation really sets in when you have your own children. You could never imagine treating them the way your parent/s treated you. Particularly when you’re the daughter of a narcissistic mother, and you go on to have a daughter. The mother and daughter bond is so powerful and special, I just can’t ever imagine actively ruining that by being so unable to admit my wrong doings. My daughter is only young, but I make sure I admit and apologise when I am wrong. I want to install that into her and myself, I’m learning a new way of parenting because I’ve only ever seen the aggressive and abusive parenting. The comments on “it’s just mum” and “oh well you know what she’s like” really piss me off! It’s not an excuse.

The comfort we should take is that we are breaking the cycle, and we are on a journey to making sure ours and our children’s lives are happy, peaceful and fulfilling.

I don't have kids but a few things contributed to my awakening: I live abroad and felt I was travelling to a different planet every time I visited my parents. I was so glad to come home again every time too and slot back into my usual life.

I also became an aunt and my mother started to ascribe some weird characteristics to her grandkid when my niece was just 2 or 3. Things like attention seeking, selfishness and even manipulation (like she's doing X to get me to do y) and I just kept thinking there is no way this tiny human has any capacity to operate with viciousness. Then the triangulation started where my mother started to moan to me about some apparently horrible behaviour by my niece and I started to remember things. She used to complain to my dad about me and I could overhear in the next room - she made stuff up, exaggerated and NEVER shared with him what she did to me to get me to react a certain way. I told her repeatedly I do not want her to talk to me about my niece like this, which she obv ignored. I realised that this was how she treated me as a child and how sick this is.

And later, I hope this does not sound weird, I got a kitten and just realised it fully depends on me for having a good home and it cannot just leave. God knows what's going on in the head of a kitten, but I could not imagine talking to it like my mother spoke to me. It was this cute, helpless and dependant tiny being and I realised that I would accept it for whoever it is and whatever it needs and that I was never treated that well. I love my cat and realised I have no such feelings towards my parents. We had cats when I grew up, but I only made the connection when I got my cat as an adult.

@mamaxbear well done on what you are instilling into your daughter. It really doesn't matter so much if parents make mistakes as long as they are accountable, apologise and change their own behaviour. Took me ages to understand that this is how normal people operate.

I'm not breaking much of a cycle, but my mission is to be a healthy person to my niece. This week she was so sweet and really supported her friend with something, so I told her 'If I wasn't your aunt I would have wanted to have you as my friend'. It felt so good because I really meant it, she did so well, and also because I could tell how much it pleased her to hear. My intention is to build her up, not break her down and ignore. I can't believe my mother could not see any good in me. I am still learning to accept that I have good qualities. I hope my niece will never have to 'learn' this as an adult. I hope she knows she is loved by at least one person and that she is amazing the way she is.

It’s so important to feed young children with positivity, it sounds like your niece has a lovely support network and will thrive with the adults around her. I actually work in a CAMHS hospital for young people who have been detained and sectioned, all under 18 years old. The stories you hear from their early childhoods make you wonder what hope they ever had.

@Twatalert I have dogs, I never wanted children after my childhood. On a visit I was holding my big sleeping puppy in my arms, stroking her and whispering how wonderful she was, how beautiful, clever and loved she was. My mum was furious and wtf was I doing, I really snapped and told her I didn't want my dog to grow up unwanted, unloved, anxious, in fear and threatened with being made homeless every day, I wanted my child to feel safe. It was like I smacked her face hard, then my weak enabler dad said 'dont talk to your mother like that, you've upset her, apologize' I got straight in my car and left.
My mother was jealous of my puppy, she couldn't stand it getting any attention. My dogs have saved me on several occasions when parents needed care, no problem I can stay for few weeks but my dogs will be with me 😂 they would moan, put them in kennels, I tell them go into kennels or care home. They can never say I didn't offer.

@binkie163 I have very clear memories of my mother being jealous of our childhood cats. She used to be angry that my dad apparently gave the cat more attention than her. I laugh about it now and can see through, but it was a horrible environment to be in. There were also incidents where the cat would jump on the table during a meal, my mother would startle and my dad would just speak to the cat 'what are you doing etc.'. My mother held this against him as he apparently did not care about her. And she wasn't joking. We all knew she meant it and this was just another eggshell you'd have to walk on. It was horrible growing up in this house and I think the cat just became everyone's friend in this misery, except my mother's.

@NowImNotDoingIt all your power and strength is in your silence. Trust me. Not engaging and divulging nothing is your power.

If something really belittling or cruel is said then absolute challenge it. But it has to be done without emotion. I have done this myself - ' I asked a sibling very politely to refrain from belittling me to my child. Of course the response was gaslighting, turn it back on me, you're too sensitive, I was only joking etc. I have not spoken to them since that day.

If you have to engage and you are criticised or belittled I think you can say ' I don't see it that way' ' I don't feel that way ', ' I know my intentions' etc etc. There are loads of stock lines you can use to assert yourself if you have to engage.

After reading so much on this subject, I can see all the professionals are right in that the ultimate desire is to engage you in drama and arguments. You will never win so don't bother. Silence wins

This is so beautiful 🤗

Do you ever fear going too extreme in the other direction? E.g. apologising too much?
I feel sometimes I come across as a very insecure mother to my DC: is that something with which any of you can relate? I second guess myself and I'm afraid of creating confusion or that my DC see me as not reliable, vulnerable, etc...
Am I making sense?

@MsNeis yes. I have often gone too far the other way with my son. My son is a very strong willed person. I'm also a single mum. This is not a good combination. He has been a little spoilt to be honest.

He is now primarily spending time with his father in a family unit with his half siblings and is thriving. This is because of my significant health challenges but I also feel that it's important this happened to counter some of what I have with the best intentions done.

Yes absolutely, I can also be very soft with my daughter because I fear becoming like my mum. Although I know I am not and will never be like her, it’s still something I fear, because ultimately that parenting is all I have ever seen and known. I am still learning and trying to find a good balance. The older I get, and she gets, the more confident I feel in my parenting in ensuring I am fair, understanding but also setting boundaries for her.

When my daughter was first born, I was very insecure and I was also still in contact with my NM. She would very much like to let me know that I was a new mum and undermined my boundaries and parenting. Now me and her do not speak, I am so much more confident.

Tank you @Pantaloons99 and @mamaxbear for your perspectives. My DC are little and I've been very mindful of my parenting, but I often feel like a fraud, that I'm like my mother but trying to hide it. It's like a voice in my head is constantly shouting "who do you think you are" at me. It's exhausting and awful. I have low self esteem. I also fear other people are constantly judging my parenting (which, to be fair, totally happens to every parent on earth 😅).
I visualize a future version of myself, wiser and more serene... sometimes this helps, but sometimes it becomes another stick to beat myself with.
Sorry, I think I rambled a bit.

How old are your children? Yes I honestly can resonate with this - like imposter syndrome!! Comfort you can take from this is that NM’s won’t ever question their parenting and whether they’re good enough. They think they’re the best thing on earth!

My wake up call was when I was having a rant at DD (she was quite young) over something so stupid I can't even remember. I realised, with horror, that I could hear my mother coming out of my mouth. DD 's little face was so sad and baffled and I swore I'd never do it again or make her ever feel like I did at any point of my childhood. I go ott with some things , or overthink, or overcompensate slights that never happened but she's a pretty awesome kid(big credit to nature ) so I must be doing at least some things right.

It didn't happen again and I put a lot of work in to manage my feelings, reactions and anger issues and I'm always checking myself just in case I slip.

Hello folks, sorry to butt in; NC here. I've just found this thread and am bookmarking.

There are a lot of problems in the family dynamics here. After years of upset followed by years of self-examination and education, I thought things would stay OK. But a recent upset has shown me that all the hurt is still there, under the surface, and maybe always will be. I just have to learn to bury it again and get on with my life. I managed that for a long time so am hoping to manage it again going forwards.

I used to say that I didn't want children as I didn't want to perpetuate the unhappiness that I'd felt as a child by inflicting learned dysfunctional parenting patterns on a child.

Then I realised that that wasn't guaranteed; I could learn to parent in a different way. I think and hope that I've achieved that; certainly my DD seems happy to spend time with me, and also happy that I an able to look after her children quite often.

Of course I wasn't a perfect mum! But I seem to have been "good enough".

So after a mild disagreement (the dog text messages up thread) my mother has messaged me today to ask if I'm bringing the kids over as usual tomorrow or can she come and see us in the afternoon. I feel sick. It's all I've been thinking about for days. I feel like a fledgling bird, flapping on the edge, so so close to finally doing it for myself.
If I don't reply she will come here and be oblivious to what's going on. I can try ' I'm busy' but how long does that actually work for with an engulfing mother? Do I just tell her I need some space and block her? I've been learning and exploring all of this for 3 years and I'm so drained.

@SadMary have you ever tried therapy for your feelings - maybe talking about this can help you find helpful coping strategies?

@User543211 I think for your own peace of mind you should tell her you need some space, tell her to please respect this and give you the space you need. If this is met with argument, tell her this is what is happening as it is best for you and if you need to then block her. Let us know how you get on x

@mamaxbear - I have considered therapy recently. But that would presumably mean dragging a lot of shit up again. The recent upset did disturb my hard-won equilibrium quite badly and I'd far rather look forwards and try to move on again, than backwards.

I have in the past had counselling and done some reading around the subject and it did help me to bury stuff - or achieve equilibrium and move forwards, that sounds much better! Life is better when past unhappiness is not remembered. And although it may be unfashionable to say that, for me I think that's for the best. We can't change the past, I can't give myself a different childhood, so the best I think I can do is to learn from it and move on, without it acting as a millstone around my neck.

It’s whatever works best for you. Some people benefit from therapy and counselling, some don’t! I hope you find your peace again and eventually forever. You’re brave, just remember that.

@User543211 yes, tell her you need space. Take one step at a time. You sound like you still have doubt about NC (not about it being justified but whether or not you should/can do it), so take one smaller step to put yourself first. How can you put YOUR needs first? Would it help to put a date on 'needing space' or is it counterproductive?

I totally get you feeling sick.

@User543211 i agree, send a firm message saying no its not convenient and don't reply to any further messages after that. If she turns up, don’t answer the door, you may have to do this several times. I had this when I initially went NC. Her reaction will show if she’s prepared to respect boundaries when bluntly stated. However if she’s a narcissist be prepared for her to stamp all over them. This is why LC never worked for me. Whilst LC, my mother even started booking herself into our local hotel when I said she couldn’t come over I kid you not, as I live 90 mins away. She then bombarded me with texts/calls to meet up at the hotel. I had absolutely no choice but to go fully NC and sadly it may well be the same for you. Don’t let her intimidate you, start putting your boundaries in place, this may be the start of getting your life back. However to begin with it is a very stressful process as they rarely go quietly. I really sympathise, I also remember that sick feeling only too well x

@Twatalert I have no idea. My sister is a new woman since she went nc. She's thriving. She's incredibly supportive of me also.
She was the scapegoat and was openly ridiculed. I was the golden child but in a weird way....she celebrates my success but only so she can brag about it. If I do something, she does it. Like she wants to live through me. I still had my fair share of verbal and emotional abuse. I've blocked so much of it out which is why I'm struggling. If it wasn't for my diary and my sister I'm not sure I'd remember much at all.
I need to woman up and get this done tonight before she rocks up tomorrow.
@SadMary I put off having kids for the same reason. Dreaded having a girl. I have one now and she's my world, I can't imagine ever treating her how I was treated. I had a dream the other night that I did and it left me a mess all day. I'm still worried that I'll turn into my mother and ruin her little life! Determined not to though and I have an amazing MIL to model true love to me and my daughter.

@SadMary I didn't go the therapy route. I can't change the past, I did low contact most my adult life, I prefer not to dwell on my shit childhood. Denial was easier for me. When I went NC all the anger, resentment and sadness hit me. I was a mess for 2 months. I got over it and moved on. I didn't want to waste another second of my life thinking about them.

@User543211 perhaps take some time to decide. You don't have to decide tonight. I may have said this before but think of some strategies to deal with any emotional turmoil in preparation. NC or so is not always immediately liberating. Anxiety might spike or guilt may feel unbearable. You may end up confused and not see clearly. It may take time to feel the relief.

Golden children are abused children too. I have some resentment towards my GC brother, but I also know he is being controlled. The fact that your sister is a new woman resonates with me.