August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Yes I have issues with clothing to this day. Growing up it was normal to just have one coat and one pair of shoes. I had a couple of jumpers for school and one bottom. There is no school uniform in the country I grew up in. I used to worry if they'd get washed in time over the weekend so they'd be dry by Monday morning. I was way too young to monitor when the washing machine would run or to feel my jumper Sunday night to see how wet it still is and if it might be dry by the morning. It makes me really sad now.

On my first day of school my mother forced me into a dress and tights I didn't want to wear. The tights didn't fit properly. The dress was scratchy. It ruined the whole day for me.

One day in secondary school my parents picked me up and took me to a clothes shop. They forced me to choose a jumper, even though I didn't like what they had or things didn't fit me. Then I chose one that was scratchy and rough again, because I had to choose something, so again nothing to wear. They behaved as though they took me shopping a lot and I just never wanted anything and just wanted to wear this one jumper I wore all week. It makes no sense as it wasn't as though they they offered to buy me clothes when I needed them. It must have been one of my mother's rages. God knows how I had pissed her off and she decided to get her way with me on this occasion as she did so often.

To this day I worry about having nothing to wear or not finding new comfortable clothing should my trousers rip etc. I nearly placed an order yesterday for a trouser and a shirt, of which I already have two of each, 'just in case'.

Besides the neglect what really damaged me is the power my mother in particular exerted over me over and over again. How she forced and guilt tripped me into things. The way she looked to dominate me and didn't allow me to be my own person.

It’s so sad. I also just did as I was told. I have in the past people pleasing tendencies that I’ve learnt is a form of control. I’ve never had control and I still often forget I have more control than I think. This is really interesting and I know it’s your experience but it’s helpful for me as mum to realise that I need to give my daughter control and to not listen to those around me who tell me I need to have all the control and I’m too easy with her.

@Happyfarm give her age appropriate choices. Let her be seen and heard. Accept differences between her and you. Let her accomplish something and make her feel good about it.

What are the chances that you are too easy on your daughter with your past. Not very high id say.

And btw @Happyfarm to do what my mother did to me and to inflict this kind of damage onto another person you need to have a personality disorder. I can see very clearly now how my mother doesn't operate like a normal person. It's like the lights are on but there's nobody home.

I know what you say but I always worry what happens if I have a personality disorder and I don’t know it. I don’t think people know they have a problem do they? I thought they just go around inflicting damage with no idea.

I think narcissists and sociopaths in particular don't wonder if they have a personality disorder or if they do harm to another person. It doesn't occur to them that what they do is not just wrong but outright cruel and damaging to another person.

I suppose I’m not one. My mums mum was totally vacant emotionally and abandoned them when they were teenagers and left them with their alcoholic dad,my own mum didn’t have single clue what to do with me. I’m not perfect but il nothing like those 2 women.

no one with a personality disorder could possibly write with such clarity and wisdom as you do . You write with warmth and empathy and your post about our experiences of childhood being valid a couple of pages back completely summed up my feelings and really touched me. x

Just catching up on the thread because I can't sleep I have awful anxiety which is a combination of being peri menopausal and the situation I am in with my family and it's my first day back at work tomorrow after 2 weeks off and I've had covid for most of it
Plus it's dd first day in her new job tomorrow so she is nervous anxious and I have been holding in my own anxiety about going back to work in

I am so sad so many of you had such awful neglectful childhoods I am sure my dm struggled being a single parent as my ddad died when I was 18 months old they had just moved house so hadn't set up life insurance when he was diagnosed with cancer they had inherited a cottage so dm sold it to pay off the mortgage so she could keep our house apparently bottles of pop were a Christmas thing but she went back to work full time when I was 4 so I don't remember any of it we always had an annual holiday abroad spoilt at birthdays and Christmas

Dm was always frugal though the house was always freezing as she was stingy with the heating shopped at kwik save rather than sainsburys etc very careful with money hated debt etc

Dm had savings she had £18k in her current account until dsis took £10k one savings account got closed to fund dsis £14k weight loss surgery she had been mortgage free for over 40 years due to selling her own inheritance a property from my dads side she had no inheritance from her dm due to care home fees now at 84 she has a mortgage that wasn't needed and went to dsis probably nothing in the bank as dsis was after her spending spree was taking 2k a month out it just makes me so sad and angry that dm worked hard lived a frugal life and dsis is just frittering it away

Well this morning postman delivered an invitation to a sit down meal for me and a 'plus one of my choice' and my son to my mother and her husbands 30th anniversary together.

Why cant she fuck off out of my life? Why can she not see what shes done? Why can she not ever have been a normal mother and human being?

Also shes with her husband more than 30 years I am sure.

Oh and just to add this celebration of her and her now husband getting together coincides with the fact he left his wife and kids and she left her husband and kids so shes celebrating ruining the lives of two families.

They are so thoughtless aren’t they.. I mean what’s to celebrate for you? That she ruined your childhood .. why on earth would you want to go to this.. my mother married my narc step father who has quite literally ruined our whole lives.. they’d been together already for 40 years.. and they hate each other.. I didn’t go.. like you, there was nothing to celebrate for me.. yay.. congrats mum.. you chose a narcissistic alcoholic who hates your kids .. whoop

@Kelwar what she is doing is desperately trying to claw me and my son back into her life. All she had to do last year was acknowledge she was wrong and what she did was wrong and i was so weak I would have allowed her back but the longer this shite goes on the less i need her and the less i want her around but this is taking the bloody biscuit. I just asked my son if he wanted to go and he said no just because she targeted him. She doesnt get this. She contacted his schol, he was called out to be asked about his homelife because of soemthing she has done. It was me she wanted to get at but she got at him instead. I wont be responding, i now know no response to her is the only response. I wish i had learned it a long time ago.

I can’t believe she went to your son’s school!! Just don’t give in.. I went NC about 6 years ago and caved because my mother came to my house to talk.. she sat and denied my whole version of my life.. took zero accountability.. cried.. I gave in and spent the next 6 years dreading her calls.. putting up with her put downs, political visions (which greatly differ from mine but she enjoys baiting me all the time) and feeling anxious and pissed off after most contacts.. she recently involved my 11 year old DD in our argument and I thought ‘ no chance are you going to start on my daughter.. not a chance’ so now she’s blocked and she’ll stay that way… it helps my dd confessed to me that she doesn’t like her nanna. You’ll obviously have huge wobbles about whether you have made the right decision.. and you’ll wonder was she really as bad as you thought.. but you know deep in your heart she’s toxic as I do with mine..

@Kelwar yeah she did it last year last dec and i have not been in contact since. Like you when shes done this shit to me before i glossed over it but then she targeted my child and same i wont allow her to do to him what she did to me. She wont be doing it end of. Shes the victim of course. Usual bloody spiel but we reap what we sow.

Exactly.. don’t allow her toxic crap near your son, you’re trying to give him a better life as am I with my kids.. seeing us unhappy affects them so much.. sometimes mums get it wrong but when kids come to us and say ‘you totally messed up’ then a normal person would reflect, apologise and try and make it right.. our mothers have been given ample opportunity to be better and failed every single time.. the lack of accountability really pisses me off.. and I can see it does most of us.. we are all decent people on here who would have loved wonderful parents.. sadly that wasn’t to be, so now we look after ourselves and our own kids and if they come to us later and tell us they’re annoyed with us then we know how to make it right.. my 17 year old DS came to me the other day as I had annoyed him with something I’d said.. I took On board what he had to say, accepted it, apologised and know not to do it again.. it’s not hard to be a decent person

I feel so sad reading about those of you who suffered awful neglect. It's heartbreaking.
Regarding memories...I used to think I'd blocked lots out due to trauma but now I lean towards the idea that it's normal to not remember much. I think though that in 'normal' families, occasions get discussed and 'remember at your 4th birthday party...' type conversations happen so the memories are kind of made that way for you which doesn't happen as much with a narcissist mother? No idea.
My mum has messaged me 6 times before 6 this morning asking for more 'contact' with my children. We have a date set in a couple of weeks where I will be there as well. The way she is talking makes it sounds like we are co-parents sorting contact honestly - she wants an 'informal plan'! What can I say to her? She's done the whole 'I realise you don't want to see me' crap. I
I feel like saying don't be ridiculous, you're my mum not my ex. We'll see you as and when like we always have.
I'm on holiday with my beautiful family and just feel sick now. Heart racing. Dark cloud above me.

@User543211 6 times before 6am, dont normalize it, that is stalking/bullying. To us it is normal but it really isnt and do not reward that behaviour. Of course she has done it while you are on holiday because she thinks she is important, she cant bear the thought that you are relaxing without her consent and constant input . There is no timetable of contact! she is not entitled to access to your kids, you just say NO they are not her playthings, you are the parent not her, she doesnt get to decide, demand or anything else.
@Genuineweddingone your mother is utterly deranged.

@User543211 everything you say regarding how your mother behaves, like she is an ex trying to arrange contact, is spot on. Instinctively you know exactly what is reasonable and what is not. You know she is out of order and your body knows it too. Try to listen to it as much as you can. Your body is sending all the signals...you'll want to give her an inch to lessen any guilt, panic etc. for just a little while but they'll come back full force. Your body will not 'shut up' until you sever the emotional tie to your mother. Do this in small steps as little or often as you can. Or perhaps she'll deliver a final straw moment to you soon. It is scary as hell but remember that you are SAFE. It does not seem like it, but you are. What you are trying to do is HARD, it really is, but you are amazing for seeing through her and resisting her games.

She's harassing you User, it's not ok. You're on holiday with your immediate family, yes? Turn. Your. Phone. Off. It doesn't matter even if someone dies, you can find out when you're back home. You're on holiday so you're unavailable.
On return either continue to ignore her or
feel like saying don't be ridiculous, you're my mum not my ex. We'll see you as and when like we always have.
Is a totally reasonable response. Although after the harassment I'd not want my DC around her, she's coming across as unhinged.
Don't engage with her nonsense or get caught up in justifying it, you don't need to justify, you don't need her agreement or permission, or for her to be ok with your decision. Just make whatever decision you make and stick to it. Leave others to deal with their own feelings about it.

This resonates with me a lot. I really try to offer my children age appropriate autonomy and lots of choice and really listen to them. All things my mother never allowed of me. I was never allowed to do anything I actually wanted, only what she thought I should do. She absolutely hated seeing me offer my kids choice and would say loud and clear that I am soft and would often tell me ‘don’t ask them, tell them’.

Just to refer back to the comments about clothes, my mum would barely buy me clothes and shoes and I have so many memories of not having what I needed and fantasising about having nice clothes. When she would buy me things on birthdays (rare) she would moan for weeks that she even had to spend money on me, tut and roll her eyes to the heavens, to the point I couldn’t even enjoy them. She would regularly go through my clothes and wear them, things like my fave top or trousers and even my socks, this all when I was around 12!!! I literally could not have anything for myself. We were poor growing up and lived in squalid conditions but my mum was heavy smoker and drinker now as I an adult I could see exactly where her money was going. It’s so upsetting to acknowledge this :(

I bought myself a fashion magazine when I was about 14. First and last time, my mother got really angry in public as ‘how dared I waste money like that’, and gave me the silent treatment for the rest of the day. I was so upset that I put it away when we got home, made me sick to look at it. Every time I see a fashion magazine to this day, I think of this episode. She used to tell everybody what a pampered child and teenager she was and how every Sunday she’d buy herself a magazine, then go to the cinema with friends and then go for a hot chocolate. I just bought myself a magazine 😥

…and I still felt sorry for my mother as she was the ‘victim’ of my abusive narc father. I never saw how selfish she was until now, when I’ve realise she was only obsessed with her own pain.

Also, we stopped getting Xmas presents as soon as we knew Santa wasn’t real, aged 10 and 11. It breaks my heart for the children we were.