August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Part of being a good mother is realising you sometimes aren’t a ‘good mother’…
don’t be guilt tripped by her.. that’s all the messages are about.. is to offload on to you and try and alleviate her own crap.. if she is desperate to salvage your relationship then why can’t she just keep quiet and see you, keep things nice and spend time with her grandchildren? I’ve found exactly the same with my own mother.. it’s the pushing pushing pushing the boundaries all the time and then being shocked when you don’t want to know..

I know. The second guessing yourself and constant over analysing is so draining.

Thank you for this post 🙏

@Happyfarm @MsNeis

Besides the obvious the next worst feeling for me is that I really struggle to make friends.

I feel as though people are talking to me because they want something/want me to do something. Or I don't feel worthy of their friendship.

More often than not, "friends" have back-stabbed me or tried to manipulate me or use me.

I seem to attract the wrong type of person.

I thought I'd made a good friend at work but (long story short) she'd been saying I have no life, no friends etc. We were going to go on a course together with a view to possibly having a side hustle to work as I was struggling a bit financially. She'd said she would arrange it all as I had my Parents and Children to deal with. She had forgotten she'd told me the price of the course months prior to us seriously thinking it. Then she said she would book me on it but my half was actually 300% of the total cost. When I queried it and said I can't afford that she just stopped talking to me but was talking about me to my co-workers - sometimes so that I could hear! This is just 1 example!

I don't know how to get out of this rut.

I often fantasise about being in a different place, where no one knows me, no one has any pre-conceived ideas, no whispers behind my back.

if she is desperate to salvage your relationship then why can’t she just keep quiet and see you, keep things nice and spend time with her grandchildren? I’ve found exactly the same with my own mother.. it’s the pushing pushing pushing the boundaries all the time and then being shocked when you don’t want to know

This is what I spend a lot of time thinking.
....
Besides the obvious the next worst feeling for me is that I really struggle to make friends. I feel as though people are talking to me because they want something/want me to do something. Or I don't feel worthy of their friendship. More often than not, "friends" have back-stabbed me or tried to manipulate me or use me. I seem to attract the wrong type of person

The damage runs deep.
......
I often fantasise about being in a different place, where no one knows me, no one has any pre-conceived ideas, no whispers behind my back.

I can recommend it, although bear in mind "wherever you go, there you are". You have to be ready to change in yourself, not just relocate.
I love how family can't infiltrate my friendships here, which used to happen, sometimes accidentally through my family/friends working together and sometimes deliberately by family bumping into my friend they knew by sight and befriending them with the "charming and wonderful" act. Used to drive me nuts. I can mention my toxic relatives or my estrangement or lack of family support to friends and not get "oh, but (s)he's lovely!" in return.
I'm very choosy about friends now. I won't get involved with My Life Is A Mess because I don't want to listen endlessly to them moan whilst doing nothing to change it, I want to have fun. Also I avoid Billy No Mates and Nobody Loves Me because it's a red flag they have something bad about them repelling other nice normal friends/dates, so I take that as a sign I should be repelled too even if I'm not feeling it.

Thank you all for not bringing attention to my post the other day I am sorry for my incoherent rant and i am embarrassed by it. It was the anniversary of ddad death which never usually affects me but it did as I feel he must be looking down on all the mess and be ashamed. I feel I have let him and dm down by failing to protect her but any actions I have taken are getting If anyone bothered my own sister in trouble.

nothing you have ever said has sounded incoherent to me. I am sorry you are in such a horrible position with your sister. It hurts I know. I am totally struggling with my feelings towards my sister as I have said many times. it seems like an endless loop of trying to let it go and failing. I am drained by it all as well.
I have had a terrible nights sleep again after a telephone conversation that set me off again.
Sometimes this thead moves quick and posts get missed so I hope that doesn't make you feel unheard.
Anyway I hear you loud and clear so rant anytime incoherently or otherwise and I am sorry the law couldn't be of more use to you. Take care x

@Spendysis
And you are absolutely not to blame if your sister gets in trouble btw. And you have not let your mother down! far from it in fact ! But somehow these people always seem to land on their feet ! it makes me mad on your behalf!

@Spendysis I understand the pressure of having someone looking down on you. I too lost my dad when I was 35. I promised myself I would take care of my mum for him. I struggle with my feelings all the time. It’s a totally different situation but any “normal” daughter would jump at this and would do anything to look after there mums. I do what I can but I feel like a monster because I don’t do it out of love. I sometimes go and come home and I remember this person ruined my life and here I am looking after her.

I had some more flashbacks this week and a weird dream about my parents. My father told me in the dream that we must sit down and resolve this as he's getting panic attacks and isn't sleeping. I wanted to tell him what he thinks it was like for me growing up and all these years. Instead I just got angry and told myself 'not my problem'.

Despite all I have so much more peace going NC. I was pottering around the house this morning and entertaining my cat and just thought how good life is.

I think this new peace came as I stopped trying with my parents. I stopped trying to fit in and be accepted. It's finally over and I can learn to be who I want to be. It actually makes me cry.

"BUT… I’ve gone NC before and I know the procedure if we speak again .. she’ll either scream and shout and defend her decisions… or she’ll cry.. either way she becomes the victim again and I’ll end up apologising.. and Im not doing that again".

Kelwar

It seems you were not fully no contact with her last time around if she was able to use DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim, offender) on and against you. If she is too toxic/batshit etc for you to deal with, its the same deal for the kids too. Would you tolerate her behaviour from a friend, its unlikely and your mother is no different.

You have a choice to no longer be her audience; let her shout and scream etc but it won't be at you going forward. Drop the rope she holds out to you and grieve instead for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. No contact is precisely that; the door is closed permanently.

"BUT… I’ve gone NC before and I know the procedure if we speak again .. she’ll either scream and shout and defend her decisions… or she’ll cry.. either way she becomes the victim again and I’ll end up apologising.. and Im not doing that again".

Kelwar

It seems you were not fully no contact with her last time around if she was able to use DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim, offender) on and against you. If she is too toxic/batshit etc for you to deal with, its the same deal for the kids too. Would you tolerate her behaviour from a friend, its unlikely and your mother is no different.

You have a choice to no longer be her audience; let her shout and scream etc but it won't be at you going forward. Drop the rope she holds out to you and grieve instead for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. No contact is precisely that; the door is closed permanently.

I have not been on this thread in a bit as my head was not in it. Last time my 'family' tried anything to suck me back into their dramas i deleted all of them from social media and since then I have had peace and quiet. I cant see what they are doing or my mother is doing and I post nothing about my life and it has been so calm and wonderful for the first time in years. Now i know it wont always be like this but I am loving the fact there is no drama and chaos. I hope to get to read back on this thread this weekend. Hope all are ok x

This is why I’ve had to cut contact.. I was doing more for my mother in her later years than she had ever done for me as a child. Because I went to boarding school at 6, I remember one night when I was about 7, I was so hideously ill with sickness but I had to deal with that on my own.. because my headmistress was terrifying and I didn’t want to wake her.. I even had a couple of my teachers come and visit my sick bed the following day, they must have felt so sorry for me… no mum and all that.. I’ll never forget it.
now my mother is 69 (not even old) but she is obese and had COPD due to alcoholism and smoking 40-60 fags every day.. and she wanted me to take care of her.. I did it for a bit and realised my MH had hit the floor.. I just couldn’t put someone first who had NEVER made me a priority.. don’t feel obligated to do anything for anyone who has ruined your life..X

Does anyone else not remember much of their childhood? I remember bits and pieces and obviously the bad stuff, but I don't remember one Christmas or birthday for example. I know they happened. I know many things happened, but a lot of my "memories" are formed from pictures and stories I've been told. I remember more from summers spent with my grandparents or being baby sat by my great aunt/uncle than I do from years living at home. Proper memories start around 17/18.

Just wondered if it's just me , or age , or something else.

@NowImNotDoingIt I am exactly the same. No memories (apart from the bad stuff). All of my memories centre around the extended family who we saw sporadically.
I only remember Christmas from spending Boxing Day at my Grandmothers with my cousins, nothing related to my family.
I don’t remember a single birthday really. Don’t remember what gifts I had or anything.
My stand out memory of my birthdays was school assemblies because my primary school made a fuss about pupils birthdays. We were able to take our cards in and receive a lollipop. I remember getting a red lollipop on my 10th birthday and being really happy about it. But have no memory related to my family.
As you say my memories of things like that with my family started at 16, but every birthday from that one onwards when I lived at home was ruined by my mother screaming at me or ignoring me. So even then, they are just bad memories.

Hi. Don't usually chip in, but do read everything.
Bad childhood, or I wouldn't be on here.

I don't remember my childhood at home. I do remember a few family incidents ie not to do with me personally ( so less traumatic?). I now realise I disassociated massively, into fantasy/ reading etc.
But I can however remember stuff outside of home. I used to dream a lot about my secondary school ( convent grammar, 300 girls, run by nuns, set up to help disadvantaged girls). The corridors etc. When I was doing counselling I realised it was because it was my 'safe space'. I wasn't any genius but I was validated, which I never was at home.

The other times I remember were when Mommy Dearest sent me away in the summer holidays. To relatives, or even to people allied to the church. Strangers basically. I can remember those times vividly. Eventful, and sometimes odd, but generally great. I was used to looking after myself. Then I went home and everything becomes a blur.
So in her attempt to get me out of sight she actual did me a great favour.
Ps she's still alive, at 90, and we're LC. I have mentioned those summers in passing but she says she 'can't remember'.

I don't remember much. I always thought it was normal but I do wonder what other people might remember. I remember bad stuff, like sad birthdays. I remember holidays as a young child, but all bad stuff. Being shouted at. I remember a summer holiday when I was maybe 5. It was raining days on end. My parents and my brother played a card game for days on end which I apparently couldn't play. I remember how left out and cast aside I felt. My job was to replenish their drinks, including my dad's alcohol. I spilled a whole bottle all over my trousers and got shouted at and was belittled. I still remember the smell of the alcohol and the soaked joggers. I had a strong sense of how unfairly I was treated and how ignored I was during this holiday. It never left me.

I remember reading that traumatic childhoods mean you remember very little, I thought that's nonsense as I hardly had any memories of growing up, school, birthdays or Christmas, it was the start of my facing up to what had really happened.

Once I took the lid off I remembered the bad stuff, it took years for me to understand and accept how bad it was, both parents alcoholic, all the screaming, shouting, smashing the house up, the violence, my mum was a serial shagger, being parentified, always on eggshells.
Mostly though I remember the feelings. I never felt safe, fear of being homeless as a child, abandoned, turned out, not belonging, unwanted, being screamed at, beaten for no reason, never knowing what to expect when I got home from school, I could never bring friends home. I felt deeply ashamed and embarrassed. I was aware even as a very small child trying to ingratiate myself into other families in the hope they would take me in [that makes me cry even now] I found being honest with myself about my childhood really hard.
In later life I can definitely see how my childhood fears and insecurities shaped my future decisions and relationships. I left home at 17.

I remember little of my childhood either. I think it has something to do with the way the brain processes information when in survival mode. It’s the same with my abusive marriage. I remember very little. The sad part is I remember very little of the first few years of my daughter’s life. Even when I look at photos of myself back then I don’t recognise myself or the situation. I don’t remember holiday destinations we went.

As a child I always thought we had money problems because I didn't get anything new other than for birthdays and Christmases. And then I often got what I needed, like pjs or books for school. I don't remember receiving a present I had desperately waited for. I didn't get as much as a book or magazine to read outside of these occasions. I felt guilty when I needed to ask for school supplies. I wore my brother's clothes, incl boys knickers which were very obviously for boys. I was so embarrassed.

Except for once when my mother surprised me with a book.

In hindsight I know money wasn't plenty but it wasn't that tight that I had to wear my brother's knickers. I realised my brother had hobbies which he received supplies for, swimming lessons and swimming exams, he played an instrument. Later my parents ran a car for him. I was a second class citizen. I feel really sorry for that little girl I was and who thought she was the problem.

This was me I too went to school with my brothers Y fronts ( underwear) 5 years old, remember to this day the feeling of pure embarrassment bloody 5 years old other children laughing and pointing at me, why was that OK, learnt from a early age feeling of embarrassment, sadness, loneliness, worthless, I have never forgotten those feeling, still to these day can not understand any parent doing this thank god I have wonderful children and GC, I still question why my childhood was so sad, both parents now passed,

@Omgblueskys this moves me to tears. I honestly didn't think another girl on the planet wore her brother's knickers in school. Yes with the Y front. I was so embarrassed. I cannot understand how my parents thought this was an ok thing to do.

Yes also to feelings of embarrassment, sadness, isolation and loneliness. They are the story of my life. I'm starting to wonder if I am maybe not a homebody. I just learnt to be one because why would a child think it's fun out there in the world if all you know is being shamed, criticised and getting ignored.

I had exactly the same situation.. my Xmas presents were never anything I’d particularly asked for.. it’s was always budget things.. occasionally clothes but I didn’t closthes all year round like my children need. I remember looking in my wardrobe once and I had 2 outfits and one pair of plimsolls.. my uncle and aunt took me on holiday and bought me clothes because I’d taken so little with me.. my mother was always so tight with money.. even now she is horribly tight.. she’s always buys for herself though when we went out.. filling the trolley with things she desired.. makes me sad now yo think of that too

Im Sorry this sounds awful. Some people just shouldn’t be parents. I suppose they don’t realise just how disordered they are. Lacking in empathy can cause people to behave so badly. I remember getting into an argument with my daughter because she didn’t like the knickers I bought her. She is 8 and simply said to me “I’m sorry mummy but I’m just not you”. It’s something that has really hit home. How much we force on our children because we don’t see it as an issue, not realising they are completely different to us. My mum and MIL with their ND struggle with this because I don’t behave the way they want or expect. It’s their issue but as a child I took all the guilt of being me.