August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Posted last week, here with a different name. I just wanted to respond to those asking about therapy/counselling - I am doing this at the moment. Started for health anxiety, but has progressed into being about my overall wellbeing and why I have constant low level anxiety and how to deal with it. It's been quite difficult, some sessions more than others (violent narc father, parentified/enmeshed with mother, now LC with mother and have been for a long time, but ashamed/guilty over being LC with mother).

Two things came out really clearly in the last session:

1. I went LC/NC because I had to in order to be normal and give my children a normal home life, and that's not something to feel bad about.

1. My mother's behaviour (if I look at what she does, not what she says) suggests that she isn't actually that bothered about me. So maybe I don't need to feel guilty about the LC because she doesn't care that much anyway.

Doing some difficult thinking about how people feel about children they have with people who abuse them ATM. Tough going.

@Lemonhaircut thank you for sharing your experience

So for the first time in 14 months I saw dsis in the supermarket don't think she saw me it got me thinking how would I respond if I were to come face to face with her and i have no idea how to act. We only live 5 minutes walk away from each other so I am surprised we haven't bumped into each other before

Anybody? :(

you must be having the same kind of day that I am. I have been struggling all day thinking about my sister and what on earth goes on in her head and now I have been up for ages with the youngest child . I feel.like there is no escape from the analysing and trying to make sense of it all.
Anyway I understand your complex relationship with your own sister and how hurtful.it can all be . I have no.huge pearls of wisdom( I wish ) other than to say that you should trust your judgement and protect yourself as much as you need to . This stuff really messes with your head. x

I feel.like there is no escape from the analysing and trying to make sense of it all.

Oh gosh this flapjack. I just want to get on with my life and not be thinking about them.

Nasty she was so awful you kicked her out. Just because you could tolerate her on your days off, that's because you're seeing her less and not living with her, not because she's changed and become easier to get along with.

For anyone else sick of analysing it all, I find it helpful to think not "why?" but just acknowledge that this is the situation. I'm in charge of my own behaviour and who I spend time with, I remind myself it's ok to fade away from people who are dragging me down. I don't need to know why they're doing it, just that they are. Then I can use that acceptance to go NC or LC and if they can't accept it that's their problem. I don't have to fix their emotional distress for them by visiting or texting when I don't want to. If they can't understand why I never/rarely visit or text, they can get therapy to find out how to be a better person. It's not on me to teach them.

I feel.like there is no escape from the analysing and trying to make sense of it all.

Snap! I wish sometimes they’d just come and say it….we don’t like you. Wouldn’t be nice but it would be final. Why don’t they just want you to know they don’t????

@Nastyaa You've said in your post that you love your sister - can I ask why you love her? And why do you spend time with her? You don't seem to like her or enjoy her company.

I know it's what we're supposed to feel about siblings/parents, and when we were young children we most likely did have that emotion towards them as we're wired to. But that doesn't mean we still feel that way in adulthood once we're able to see the relationship more clearly.

You don't owe her love or your time just because she buys you birthday presents, no matter how expensive they are. From what you've said it reads like this is how she keeps you available when actually you'd rather not be. You spend time with her you'd rather not because you feel guilty if you say no because she paid for a holiday. Maybe that's why she did it.

Maybe this is an opportunity to take a break from her for a bit and see if it makes your life better.

@Nastyaa I totally agree with @Lemonhaircut she is paying you to be available and do as you are told. There are no freebies with these people, they ALWAYS expect their pound of flesh. She wants your subservience and unwavering gratitude. It isn't worth the price.

Can I get some advice please
I'm cutting down massively.

Mum was mentally and physically abusive in childhood.
Once I fought back it ended and we had amicable teen and 20s. Was involved in grandkids etc.
She would paint it MUCH rosier than me.
Few explosive events but on whole fine but alot of resentment from me, especially when I tried to bring up childhood and she attacked rather than apologise.

She lives just 20 mins away. Drives. Both parents retired. Don't see my kids at all. Pop in on their birthdays for 30 mins.

Seriously that's it.

I rang her recently because I've been dealing with a lot lately and 2 of my kids have poor mental health and I found out one had an active suicide plan.

I told her and it's been about a month and she's not even come to see him :(

She spends literally every day with my sisters kids. Does everything for them. If they have a cold she drives round with paracetamol

But I tell her 2 of my kids are seriously struggling and one was planning suicide and she doesn't even come see him.

She can't take him out to see a film? Or a drive or anything?

I feel like I just want to cut her out of my life now.

I don't get anything from her so whats the point t??

I also over analyse everything as well why has dsis done this to us it took me so long to report her behaviour as I was looking for some psychological reason for her behaviour and i actually feel a bit sorry for her. She likes to portray herself as a rich happy successful single person when in reality she's up to her eyes in debt her health is poor and it's dm who has funded her lifestyle I actually think she is an unhappy person deep down

As awful as this sounds I think the only time i will get some closure on this awful situation is when one of them dies and I feel guilty for feeling that way

@kitmo she's shown you who she is and how she feels about the family, I guess the question now is what you do with that information.

I certainly wouldn't look to her for advice or support in future. Scratch her off the list. It can be very hard to do, but the thing is not to constantly try and figure out why, or to hope that next time it will be different.

What will happen if you just stop phoning her?

Do these types of people who buy things once in a while or visit once in a while do this because they are trying to train you to accept nothing so you hang around? They don’t actually care about you or your needs they just want you available for when they have a need. So they might visit when they wake up one day and think oh I think I’ll go and see so and so today because today I need to or I better make an effort incase they see through me but they won’t be around when you need them. They want you to think they care but it’s completely on their terms and they are in control?

@happyfarm I think maybe some of that, but I also think that it can be a way of showing themselves that they're not the problem because look, they made an effort. That's a bit how I feel with my family situation. That it's done to avoid facing the truth, which is that we barely speak and there's very little interest in changing that. I often think that just as we as the children have a hard time accepting and explaining to others why we don't really see our parents, maybe they have the same issue on their end, explaining to others why they barely see their adult children, so some small bit of contact allows for the pretense that the relationship isn't actually as bad as it looks. It's the story people tell themselves to make their actions into something they can live with.

Brilliant, thank you 🙏

I just know if I say anything she will say 'well you didn't X when Y happened' and it's upto me to visit her too.

But I just feel like in these circumstances most grandparents would visit? Or make some effort to cheer up their grandkids? Something?

Maybe most grandparents would. But you're not dealing with normal grandparents so there may not be much point in making that comparison.

Fwiw my kids are generally ignored too. They don't seem bothered, it is sadly normal for them.

@Lemonhaircut so do you think a lot of it is to save face? How to look like you give a shit without really giving a shit! I wonder if they are trying to save face from themselves also because they must know they don’t actually care? How they can live in there body knowing they don’t care about people, their own kids and grandkids I just don’t know how they do this.

Yes exactly that, they keep people dangling for when they are useful and serve some purpose.
It is just who they are. We make it more complicated by looking for reasons, there aren't any, they are just that way.

@Kitmo I am guessing you are the scapegoat, it's hard but it is what it is. Your mum will never change and will sabotage your family because she can. It is not your fault she is the way she is. I'm so sorry your teen is struggling. Put all your love and energy into your children and cut yourself free from your mum. Every bit of energy, emotion, time and headspace wasted on her is energy you can put into yourself and your children.
It's hard, unfair and it hurts but we cannot change defective people xx

@Happyfarm I think @Lemonhaircut is spot on, they do things very occasionally to show others they aren’t the problem.
A member of my family was/is like it. She has fallen out with a few people (including me), but blatantly shows up at peoples homes occasionally. When she did it with others before she fell out with me too, when she retold visiting these people she used to cross her arms and say ‘and I sat there and there was nothing she/he could do about it, cos they they are the problem, not me. They were not going to stop me visiting’. They were more or less her exact words.
I think there is a sense of entitlement in there too, because they know occasionally turning up will wrong-foot you and they are pushing on your boundary because they can.
I think when there are children in the equation they are doing it to be seen by the children too. So if they decide to tell twisted tales to your children later on about you, the children will think ‘hang on, that’s right Grandma/Grandad/Aunt did visit, mum never liked that and we never visited them’. = mum Is the problem, not the toxic relative.

In my (limited) experience of having a narcissist parent, and from what I've read, much of the building of the self image isn't for other people, it's for themselves - they do these things to confirm to themselves that they are, as they believe, superior and doing the right thing. 'look what good person I am, look at the effort I made.' It's also often important to them to be seen doing the right thing by other people, hence the big fuss and then nasty sniping that you're ungrateful because they bought you a Benetton t-shirt once even though most of the time you had barely any clothes (that might be just me though).

@Lemonhaircut Yes, I agree with that too - that they are doing it to feel good/look good.
And the giving gifts with strings rather than bows.
Its a big melting pot of reasons really, all we all really need to know is it is never done for the right reasons for us! There’s always something for them to gain from it.

@Lemonhaircut

Exactly. My sibling blatantly bad mouths me. Does nothing for my parents other than go round once a week to eat a meal they've cooked for him, sends no cards or presents to anyone - and yet he is the golden child in their eyes.

I rarely see my extended family but from conversations I have had, he has been saying I don't do xyz for my Parents and how appalling it is.

When I do raise this with my Parents, I'm blanked or they refuse that it's the case. I just feel used and like a fool.

@Lemonhaircut

Golden child often makes grand offers which never happen of course!

Then this is repeated and repeated by my Parents saying he has offered to buy them xyz and how good it is of him.....

When I commented when he hasn't given them even a card for Mother's Day/Fathers Day/Birthdays etc they say they've told him not to bother as he's very busy!!!

My cards to them are usually put up but then quickly taken down off the fireplace if anyone visits as they don't want people to think he hasn't sent one and that I'm trying to make him look bad!!!

Even when I visit and do chores for them (they are elderly) they make out I'm not there or haven't been!!!

Why do you do so much for them if it isn’t appreciated or even allowed to be noticed by others? That must be so hurtful that they take your card down so that his lack of effort isn’t noticed.

They're elderly. In ill health. There's no-one else.

I don't want to go no contact (though I do a lot less for them than a month ago due to realising all this).

Yes it is hurtful but that example is the tip of the iceberg and just a recent example of what I have to deal with.

I feel far better equipped to deal with them since getting advice on Mumsnet and reading other people's stories.

My sibling seems to set me up or wind them up knowing it will unravel on me. That's the main problem now. We aren't officially no contact but we don't speak. Everything is done slyly. I can't trust my Mother, Father or sibling. Sad fact.