August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

My mum has sent me an extremely unpleasant letter accusing me of all sorts. She’s had enough apparently (great) but sadly I live abroad and my father is pretty much housebound so the only way I will manage to see him is to go there to visit. She’s said in her letter that I need to find a ‘solution’ to still ensuring children get to see my dad (which is the main reason I am still in contact at all). We usually visit once/year for a week and stay in a hotel.

I would love nothing more than to go NC with her. I think part of her fury is down to my refusal to dance to her tune in recent years. I’ve made sure all interactions are very surface level, not get dragged in to any of her stories and gossip etc. She’s said that I’ve been rude, apparently I even need to call her sister and apologise. I last saw this sister two years ago after my mum herself had cut her out for two decades, portraying her like the wicked witch. Now this sister is back on the scene and I should be welcoming her with open arms.

I had no idea how to manage this. I walk on eggshells as it is but it’s all for the sake of my dad. If I explain myself/pull her up on her weird behaviour over the years that has lead me to back off, it will blow up in my face. I want to manage this carefully - basically for access to my dad for his remaining years.

What is (or was) your relationship with your dad?

mumof3copnfused

I hope that you have now shredded that letter; it was never going to contain anything good in it. Do not give it any more power.

"She’s said in her letter that I need to find a ‘solution’ to still ensuring children get to see my dad (which is the main reason I am still in contact at all). We usually visit once/year for a week and stay in a hotel".

She is going to continue to gatekeep and control your access to him. She is not going to help you any.

Do your children actually want to see your dad at all given how you've been treated by their nan?. It does them no favours to see you as their mum get so disrespected by their nan.

What has your relationship to dad been like till now?. Do you feel like he has failed you abjectly?. Is he just yet another weak bystander of a man who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life to avoid his wife's wrath?. If he is, he is not worth walking on eggshells (to my mind this is code for living in fear) for.

My mum and dad divorced when I was 4.. lost contact with him when I was 13.. no relationship whatsoever… my mum has remarried a total narc.. he’s worse than she is and never really accepted my brother and I.. she chose him over us every time

So obviously it was never just going to end after they sent me flowers for my birthday. I had a missed call from my father and now a 2 second WhatsApp voice message.

What do I do.

I think it will say 'call back please' but maybe someone is ill or has died etc. Probably not.

I don't want him to know if I listen to it.

I'm all over the place again.

@Twatalert

Is there a way of disabling some settings to not show you've read a message or listened to a message?
Then after this is done you can listen?

Test it out with someone else on WhatsApp before you deal with his message?

@Twatalert

I had to completely remove myself from WhatsApp due to my situation but a quick search suggests this:

To disable the feature on WhatsApp that shows when someone has listened to a voice message, you can turn off read receipts for voice messages:
Go to WhatsApp Settings
Select Account
Select Privacy

This feature prevents senders from being notified when someone has listened to their voice message. However, voice notes sent in personal chats will still show blue ticks when the recipient hears them.

Perhaps someone with recent knowledge of WhatsApp can help?

@Twatalert can someone else listen and if its nonsense they can’t delete without relaying the msg content, if someone has died then then you know to listen to it yourself.

Thanks both. I have read receipts switched off always. I just don't know if it's for voice messages as well. I couldn't find the setting to switch it off for voice messages separately.

Good idea about having someone else listen to it. If I forwarded it to a friend the sender couldn't tell I did, can they?

I had quite a nice day and then boom it's all gone. I realise I suddenly start remembering all the things they did growing up... Always pushing until I complied with whatever they wanted from me. Always dismissive if I spoke up. Always ignoring my wants and needs if it didn't suit them.

I had a panic attack earlier. I resent them for having such an impact on me still.

@Twatalert what difference does it make if they know you read it? It has nothing to do with them if you listened and thought
meh not replying to that!

@Kelwar it sounds like you’ve done the right thing completely.

@Twatalert

I don't fully know the background but perhaps it might be a good thing to let them know you've listened and not responded?

It shows them you are strong enough to not run to them and they have no hold on you?
(I appreciate this may not be the case but if they think it, I take that as empowering on your part).

I know. I'm back to being a child, totally terrified I do something they don't agree with and fearing their reactions. I know I know.

I feel the same by the way! BUT if there's a way I can demonstrate ''I don't need you'' or ''I decide not you''. That's exactly what I do.

I'm limited contact with mine though. Mine get bored and try to create arguments. I used to interact then it would turn into a ''you need to help" and 'pity me' scenario. So now I don't jump. I think about it first.

Hmmmm I was like that after I left my ex, afraid to open his message, afraid of what it will say and if I reply if that will be wrong. I now just see him as a stupid child and don’t fear him anymore. I don’t care much about not doing the right thing about anything anymore tbh. I get sad that I have a a shit family and no support but I don’t care too much about what they think. I think it’s very different for me as they don’t bother me, I don’t really exist. Which feels shit but it’s better then being stalked and bothered.

I know she won’t help and she’s absolutely using her position of power as she knows I adore my dad.

The children are 10-14 and don’t see or know what goes on. The children adore them both. As we only see them once a year I’ve managed to shield them
so far.y mum acts like a relatively normal grandparent around them. Mum has kicked off since we left after our last visit this summer but has dragged up things I supposedly did last year and which she’s never said a word about. Totally blown out of proportion of course.

I’ve had a lot of therapy and thought long and hard about my dad. He’s had a very difficult time himself, orphaned and his first wife was an alcoholic and his children from that marriage were fostered. I think my mum acted very normal until I came along (as they all do), and by the time cracks were showing I was a little girl. I believe he has stuck around to protect me because his job would have meant if he left alone with her pretty much 100% of the time before. He used to stand up to her for me but it never ended well. When I was a teenager he also became unwell and he’s been pretty much housebound for the last ten years. Perhaps if things were different he’d have left (and I wish he had, for a better life) but he did what he believed to be right at the time. Now it’s far too late. He’s had one foot in the grave for 20 years.

You are right, I’ve lived in fear of her all my life. Once my dad is gone I think our visits will end - and she will rewrite her will I’m sure!

Your children may not know what’s going on fully but they likely know far more about your relationship to their nan than you realise. They see your reactions, both spoken and unspoken here, to your parents and pick up on all the vibes. Do not therefore assume they don’t know anything or are unaware.

It is a shame indeed that your dad did not choose to leave her. He may well have stayed for his own reasons, none of which are to do with you.

What happened to him was not your fault either. He had a choice when it came to you and he chose her instead. I would drop the rope here because going back even for one week once a year does not do you any good.

Perhaps the children do, it has been very stressful in recent years due to my dad’s ill health so I’ve blamed my stress on my worry and upset about dad. He barely made it out of bed this visit or last.

I think dad believed that he was trapped. Having left an abusive relationship myself I understand him a lot better, and although I might not agree with his choices, I believe they came from a good place and it was not ultimately a selfish move.

I've contacted the counsellor to arrange an appointment I really need help processing this

Relationship with ddad my ddad died when I was 18 months old I don't remember him dm was fiercely independent growing up and kind of anti men almost bitter that he died of cancer

I don't remember him sadly but due to a year of sudden deaths I have started to lay flowers at his grave and when dm refused to let me in I visited his grave and broke down I apologised for failing to protect dm apologised for causing this family rift and showed him the video of me and my dd singing Jls proud to each other it's our sing. I hope despite everything he's proud of me

Yes I need therapy and it's booked

You're absolutely right. It's proper last straw stuff.

I've had some pretty firm boundaries in place for 4 years or so and cut back contact very low. We were so enmeshed before and spoke everyday which was just so claustrophobic. But now I'm nervous that perhaps she's not that bad and I've overreacted.

It's just so bloody confusing.

I've been in counselling for 3 years on and off; I had so much rage to off load. I'm seeing a new counsellor now who is trauma informed so we'll see how it goes. I had zero witnesses to the worst of it. My mum and I lived alone for many years so I find myself questioning whether it really was that bad or if I'm just being dramatic or imagining things.

We don’t end up like this from healthy childhoods and healthy relationships. We wouldn’t be going to therapy if we had healthy childhoods. This is enough proof to know it was real enough For you. My childhood wasn’t as bad a some people on here. My mum wasn’t intentionally trying to do anything, she wasn’t and isn’t malicious. She just wasn’t able to give me what I needed through lack of awareness, maybe some Neurodivergence, childhood trauma, illness and depression. She was a flawed human. A
few years ago I couldn’t look at her for pure rage. I got myself out of an abusive relationship. Therapy brought up my childhood and I was pissed off with her for ruining my life. But as I began to forgive myself for the mistakes I’ve made I started to feel compassion for her, for simply not knowing any better. I think this helped me separate what I’d told myself I was based on myself as a child and who I really was. It is and it was always real. Just because it sometimes seems a little silly or insignificant now as an adult it wasn’t adult ears or adult eyes going through it. If you invalidate your child experience then you invalidate everything about you now.

It’s something that has been so useful in my relationships now with people. This is my experience, this is how I react to certain people and energies because my inner self doesn’t want to be around people who make be self doubt. You have to trust your experience and what you have been through in order to have the right relationships for you now. I stay away from my MIL because she doesn’t offer me a relationship that makes me feel safe. It’s your radar and it tells you who is safe and who is not for you.
i hope that makes some sense.

The thread analogy is bang on for me. I feel like it's starting to fray and won't last much longer in my case. There's no going back now.
I decided to try LC after trying to go NC with my mum and failing miserably. I invited her to my house last Friday 'to see the kids' and she was nice as pie when she was here. We arranged to meet again in 3 weeks. Since then I've had messages every day. Today she's asked if they can have the kids (3 & 1) for a sleepover every other weekend (!!) as I've 'cut her off' and am 'stopping her seeing them' and how awful it is for her. The victim playing and guilt tripping is in full swing. Also a essay about how hard she has it, she was a single parent, didn't have support, my dad was useless (she would shout and scream at him whenever we had contact which unsurprisingly fizzed out). She finished the message with 'I am a good mother. I am a good grandmother' EYE ROLL.
I really thought she'd jump at the chance to go back to normal and pretend nothing has happened. But she's still coming at me with shit every day. I'm doing my best to grey rock but I feel like I'm going to snap.

@User543211 I honestly can't wait for you to snap.

I can completely relate to this comment.. I’m going backwards and forwards on my decision.. BUT… I’ve gone NC before and I know the procedure if we speak again .. she’ll either scream and shout and defend her decisions… or she’ll cry.. either way she becomes the victim again and I’ll end up apologising.. and Im not doing that again.