August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

It's the best therapy knowing we did the opposite to them and seeing our little familys grow healthy and happy, best ' fuck you ' ever, excuse the language, my ones are so grounded so loving and I now sit back and watch them bring up their children in the same way as I did for them, that alone is such a reward, I broke the cycle with me,

@Twatalert I was reading a thread this morning 'would you find this rude/ feel hurt... Halloween party.
Good god what a bloody thread, how these mothers can be so self unaware astounds me. 50 something mum got the arse her 20 something son not invited her to his Halloween party...really manipulative even saying will gatecrash it. 99% said absolutely do not, then she sent him mssg saying she couldn't make it to party she wasn't invited to, on and on and on, doesnt like her Dil or mil (probably any women) Bloody scary how deranged these mothers are, she just couldn't see why what she wanted was unreasonable FFS it was mental. My mum was the same wanting to hang out with my friends because she had none of their own.

I absolutely love what you have done for your children and sounds like they will know they are very loved and valued. My mother gave me all the pics of me as a child…they were never put up in her home when I was a child but stashed away in a box.. there’s not one up of my brother or I or of any of her grandchildren in her home now.. she has one of my step fathers son and their old dog… though weirdly she will point out there’s only one of her up in my home and more of my in-laws..just bizarre!
like you, I have lots of photos of my children around the house ..

Yes just so bizarre, I asked my nm when I became an adult, why she didn't have school photos of me yet had them for the other siblings, her answer was ' because I didn't want to buy your ones' again putting me in my pecking order place with siblings

@Omgblueskys As I am no mother and will never be, the first thing I did to stop the cycle was when my niece came along over 10 years ago and my mother started picking on her when she was 2 or 3. Bascially, when they start to become their own person. I realised I did not see all the bad stuff in my niece my mother saw and knew she must be totally nuts.

It was no trouble for me to back my niece at all times and be on her side forever and ever, but I am also proud to say it was a conscious decision. My father, her grandfather, completely bought into my mother's BS about my niece and my brother is in the middle. This means he is actually on my mother's side as he is happy to enable (stay silent) often enough.

When I was still in contact and visited it was often hard, because I'd speak up when my mother abused her, which led to more outbursts and I was so worried she'd ramp up her abuse towards my niece when nobody was around. One time my mother took me aside and spoke to me in a very calm and friendly way and said that I must not disagree with her in front of my niece when she is trying to set boundaries. I saw through it straight away and of course did not keep my mouth shut. People kept silent my whole childhood and I wasn't going to do the same!!

Anyway, I made it a point to build my own relationship with my niece away from them. It's mainly over the phone/video, but it is beautiful. We talk, play games, I check in with her. I validate her. I send her parcels with personal gifts and she sometimes asks me to join a phone call with her friend and we play a game together. I think it must be a huge compliment and she maybe feels emotionally safe around me!!????

I tell her when she did something well, when I am proud of her. When she is sad I tell her it's okay to be sad. I tell her it's no problem at all when she wants to end our call because she wants to call a friend now. She has a choice with me and I do not guiltrip her if she wants to hang up sometimes or not do something (unlike other family members). I point out all the good things about her and just accept her as her own person. Sometimes she tells me about an argument with a friend. I don't shut it down. I listen and validate how she feels. I ask her a few days later if they have been able to resolve it (they always manage).

That's my contribution to cycle breaking. She is growing up in a lot of dysfunction, but I hope she will always know I am on her side and I will not join in with them. I'm thinking that should she get a therapist later and they ask her if she remembers having a safe person growing up.... that she thinks she had at least one (me). But I know this can become very complicated because she may wonder why I (seemingly) did nothing. And maybe I am deluded for ever thinking I'd have any meaningful impact on her life, I don't know. Maybe I am.

@TheHistorian friendships are a learning curve. I had a good clear out in my 30's
I will drop a friendship as soon as I get the being useful vibes, anything that triggers or reminds me my mum, especially attention seeking behaviour, I also don't want to be around codependent people/couples, drama addicts, moaners and poor me types. I especially don't want to be around alcoholics.
I don't want to have to be responsible for or have to fix people, done enough of that over the years. I am more selfish about what I want now, I never agree to anything unless I really want to do it.
I go by first impressions and gut feeling, if they don't interest me or make me laugh I do not even bother with small talk. I find people mostly disappointing so I like my own company, my husband and dogs. I have really good friends still from my teenage years and a small close crowd. People come and go in life, my friends joke that they are the chosen ones 🤣 it's true, I no longer suffer fools.

I'm with @SkylarkDay quality not quantity.

Our childhoods left wanting/needing to belong and be liked. I no longer care if people don't like me, i don't like people, as long as those I do care about love me, I am winning.

Historian I could have written your post.

I've decided to come at friendships and romance from a perspective of easy-come-easy-go now. Accepting that most relationships of any kind don't last. I'm all about doing what feels right at the time and stepping back, like you've just done, if I get warning signs. I'm seeing as I get older that people's lives change and however close you once were, if lives go in different directions (whether that's location or lifestyle) it all tends to fade away to nothing. I think most relationships are about convenience - who is around locally, with spare time, who likes doing the same things as you and whose company you enjoy. I don't think it's any more complicated than that for most people.

It's more complicated for us because we're dysfunctional people pleasers who take on responsibility for things that aren't our responsibility and have been programmed to show unswerving loyalty no matter what. It leads to us getting metaphorically kicked in the teeth time and time again.

So I have two new mantras -

It's probably not going to last and that's fine, I'll enjoy it while it does.

(I'm lucky that I'm happy in my own company, so whilst it's sad if someone leaves my life, it's not the end of the world and I don't feel abandoned etc. I'm considering it good practice for old age, when all your friends start to die off (unless you go first!))

And -

If it ain't fun, I'm not doing it.

I'm trying real hard to develop a third one, aimed at other people for when they bring me their problems -

What are you going to do?

(Because I sure as hell ain't fixing it, this time!)

If someone fades away and I want to keep the door open I keep them upto date with my phone number. There's a time limit on that though, I can't have all and sundry living rent free at the back of my mind as "possibilities" for all eternity. So I weed out my contacts list. If we haven't been in contact for a couple of years or more when I get a new number, you're not getting the new one. That seems to do away with all the people who'll pop back up out of the blue because they want something and have exhausted the limits of all their actual friends/family.

In terms of friendships, I seem a attract advice givers. I have one friend like that. It would not even be about problems. I would say to her I want to buy a new washing machine and I'd immediately get advice. It was like that with everything. I had to raise it with her once and she did not react well. At all. She deflected and gaslit me. Saying 'it never bothered you over the past 15 years and now all of a sudden it does'. Reality was that this is a new thing over the past 1-2 years, but I did not get to say that to her. She has toned it down now, but I am still evaluating this friendship.

Then my other friend, she is going through something with her dysfunctional family. She also always knows everything at the moment, things have to go her way and she is trying to convince others of her great life or that she somehow has a better grip on things than others. I own my place and she is flatsharing, so she does this thing where she is bitchig about leasehold apartments (like mine) and the apparently poor quality of newbuilds (I have one). And I am thinking 'how is flat sharing in your 40s better than that?' It's like that with a lot of things. I know she is projecting, but I don't want to be the platform for that.

The more I heal the more I wonder if I will still have those friends in 5-10 years time. I do ask myself what I want in a friendship. I want to be able to calmly talk about something, to address something and I don't think it's possible with some. I do get a sense of 'I'll be shot down if I try to raise something in the slightest' and this is obviously how my mother behaved.

Just popping into say hi and sending solidarity to everyone.

All the usual bullshit rolled out by our screwed up, abusive families and having horrible impacts. GRRRR.
Love to newbies and folks who’ve been here for longer.

Things are miles better since the death of The Hag - the toxic mother in law aka the abusive bitch - and I’m good and so is Mr Monkey. He stood up to the evil one increasingly in the last four years and, although it was tough, it was a very good thing. He put boundaries in place, got therapy. He now has no nightmares. Funny that!

But it’s hard and sending love to everyone struggling.

The only downside is that the house is no longer spotless as he used to clean to reduce stress and anxiety. OUTRAGEOUS.

This is beautiful, she will always remember your kindness your love, your unconditional love , see this is it, love should be unconditional but has we know it's not, I have that one person like you my aunt she was you when I was growing up, still here today, love her the world, I know unconditional love feeling because of her, your niece will know this, your doing a fantastic job, great to break the cycle,

@Omgblueskys thank you. I am so glad you had this aunt. I often wish I had one like that. I can understand now whay nobody could get me away from my parents, but I will never understand why no aunt or uncle were interested in me and wanted to spend time with me. I hope I can be this aunt.

My niece keeps sentimental stuff I sent her, like cards. She dug one out the other day and read out to me what I wrote. I really felt it meant something to her. I make such an effort to not give generic gifts or just write cards with 'happy birthday' and no more.

That would be my bloody mother too! When I was a teenager she’d try and muscle in on my friends/life, luckily because my siblings were 10 yrs younger she was restricted in what she could do. Then when I was a lot older and an adult she’d go on about 1980’s music and how it reminded her of all our good times together back then, making out we were like besties and hung out, and how in the 1980’s we both loved George Michael. It’s weird because I never loved George Michael, I’ve definitely got nothing against him, he seems to have been a very kind and sadly troubled soul, but his music definitely wasn’t my cup of tea. I was obsessed by The Cure back then and a total goth. So it’s like my mum has constructed a whole delusional world or memory, which she then used to try and make my much younger sister feel left out and jealous about!!

To be fair, my teenage years were probably my happiest childhood period, because I did manage to escape her more. I was old enough to get out, and she had young children so couldn’t come. Dad always worked until very late. But I certainly didn’t spend the 1980’s hanging out with her to Club Tropicana! It would be kind of funny if it wasn’t so disturbing!

The sibling dynamic thing is interesting. I always felt my two oldest were the "golden children". The oldest died and over the years my Mum's relationship increasingly deteriorated with my oldest sister.

My sister was treated well by my Mum at first then became mentally ill and had rounds of therapy and increasingly resented my Mum for various reasons. She used to rant about my mum to me and of course I couldn't see it then and used to stick up for my mum (which I feel bad about now).

As my sister became sicker my Mum would alternate between still treating her as the golden child and being really horrible about her behind her back, I remember once telling my mum that there was no point expecting her to act normally because she was a mentally ill alcoholic.

My mum used to call up my sister even though we'd ask her to leave her alone, and often this would be a big trigger for my sister to have a drinking binge/mental health episode.

My mum was also completely unsupportive of my sister being ill - I think if she had it would have in some way made her face up to things she'd done, and also take the attention off my DF (who has been weaponised for sympathy and attention for years).

I realised a few weeks ago that since my sister died there's a pattern repeating - this was a few years ago and I got increasingly dumped on by my parents, my mum was horrible about me about my back even when I was trying very hard with her, I ended up with a therapist who helped me see what was going on in the family dynamic.

I'm hoping I don't end up with the same issues as my sister although there definitely is potential.

I've realised my my mum intentially riles people up by doing things she's been told, either directly or by others, that they find upsetting.

One of the things I mentioned upthread my mum does (or did do) be to force me to interact unexpectedly with my Dad, who is very ill and it's sometimes upsetting to have it sprung on me in a public place. I've explained this to her but she keeps doing it. After we had that row recently I said I only wanted contact about Dad. The next day she tried to video call me and I'm fairly certain it was to spring a video call with Dad on me when she knew I was at work.

it would not surprise me at all if she had been picking away like this at my sister too, doing stuff she knew would cause upset then being all offended Dsis didn't want to interact with her.

She also tells my surviving sibling a lot more about what's going on than me and seems to have absolutely no issues with lying to me.

Triangulation is one of their favourite pastimes. They love playing people off against each other. Also a child with issues or mental illness can be useful to them. Sometimes it’s used for sympathy and attention (for them) and sometimes it’s useful to have a weaker member of the family to kick, when they’re already down. My mum did this to my sister many times when she had alcohol/anorexia issues. Plus it provides the perfect excuse to annnoy all other members of the family with phone calls/visits and whip up a drama, where they are the star of course, requiring sympathy and attention once more. My only advice is to keep totally clear for your own wellbeing, she won’t respect any boundaries.

I can understand now whay nobody could get me away from my parents, but I will never understand why no aunt or uncle were interested in me and wanted to spend time with me

@Twatalert maybe they did and your parents blocked it. That's what happened to me.

I join you following my thread in AIBU. I’ll post a link rather than full up your whole thread with the info!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5153523-are-all-mums-like-this?reply=137898656

I am currently battling with guilt for even posting such a thread 😬

@SamAndAnnie unlikely. They made a fuss for my brother like he is some God but not me. They could at least have treated me the same. Their indifference was evident well into my adulthood.

Thank you everyone for your comments on the difficulties of friendship when you come from a difficult background.

I recognise all the things mentioned - the 'emotional caregiver role' @SkylarkDay , drawing in 'codependent people/couples' @binkie163 and the'unswerving loyalty ' to people who don't deserve it@SamAndAnnie . It's funny how we develop so much caring and empathy despite being kicked by those who should care for us. I suspect we're all scapegoats in our families of origin?

I also agree that most people are disappointing and most relationships are about convenience. I never thought I would end up so cynical. I broke up with my 'best friend' a few years ago when I realized I had passed my 'useful to her' date and was only a free weekend away for her!

This is just amazing. So inspiring to read. I'm hoping I can have this kind of relationship with my sister. She's really struggling since I asked for space from my mum and thinks she's amazing.
My mum has messaged to say I've sent my sister into a depression/anxiety spiral, triggering her flight and fight response and making her relive past trauma. My sister says she can't believe she's losing me after losing her own siblings (she's adopted). The guilt is heavy.
I don't know what to do to sustain a relationship. Keep messaging her I guess? I don't want to tell her stuff about my life that she'll feed back to my mum.

Yes, totally: thanks for putting words to my feelings exactly 🙏
I've got lots of book recommendations (I'll make a list), but two of the lastests were: "Adult children of emotionally inmature parents" (by Lindsay Gibson) and "Mother hunger" (by Kelly McDaniel). "Will I be ever good enough?" by Karyl McBride is my go to book for when I feel crazy. Also "Mothers who can't love" by Susan Forward.
I find some sm content about narcissism and/or parental abuse to be kind of fishy (shallow, clickbait-y or rather cringe... and some "experts" I don't trust).

Oh my... I'm feeling FOMO about this thread! I need time to read all your posts, but I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU to all 🙏
I know it's already been said, but your messages help to keep my sanity. I'd love to be able to respond to all of you, and also put into words my experiences, but it's a huge task for me right now... Anyway, thanks for being there 💛

@User543211 I don't know what kind of disability your sister has and what's possible for you two. But instead of calling or meeting to give each other updates on your lives perhaps see if you can find something to do together?

Would it be very obvious to your sister if you stopped sharing much about your life? I'm asking because my family was never interested in my life and so I never shared much and nobody would notice any different. I wonder what it's like in other families.

My niece and I play video games on the Nintendo switch or on our phones. There were times when we drew on our phones on some app. Stuff like that. Or I send her a funny video or something interesting. Basically anything you can to start building a different kind of relationship with her with a different kind of routine.

Are you able to reassure your sister that she won't lose you? That things may be different in the future but that you intend to maintain the relationship you have?

I know it's complicated with her living there. Are you worried she might turn into a flying monkey?

Omg guys.. my mum called me last night after a period of very LC over the last month.. she knows I’m pissed off with her so she completely love bombed me.. and now I’m annoyed with myself for being sucked in yet again.. anyone else got a Jekyll and hyde mother?.. one day they can appear very nice, accomodating and the next and absolute beast, narky, nasty bitter… that’s my mother.. I can’t stand her.. when she tells me she loves me it actually makes my skin crawl

@Twatalert , I don't attract advice givers, my mother is more of the woe is me kind but I have had a lot of envious people, just like my mum. The latest one accompanied me to court when my ex husband tried to get rid of the maintenance. She was encouraging me to take the ridiculously low five figure offer he was offering. I hung in to final hearing and was awarded six figures which allowed a clean break from the b***d. She later turned round and said "you've changed, you're all about the money now"! Needless to say she's now an acquaintance if that.

What I have found like you, is it's impossible to discuss any issues with these people. They get defensive and stick to their guns which makes me think you have to set your stall out early with these types because once you're the listening ear, the helper, the organiser, that's it. Relationships should evolve but they don't like the roles assigned to you in childhood.

I find a I have attracted a lot of people who aren’t really on my side. They are on their own side and they seek their own interests, whatever that may be. I guess it’s a dynamic we are used to. I wonder if our low self esteem at times often attracts people who feel better and more superior around us and they like that feeling. My MIL will often on the odd occasion I mention my abusive ex husband who I share a child with will side with him. I have stopped caring about who is right or wrong, people who love you will take your side. I often find relationships confusing and I’ve come to the conclusion if a relationship feels confusing then it’s not one to keep.