August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I sometimes wonder if my friendships have changed or I just wasn't aware of a few things. I too often feel like some friends try to proof a point how happy they seemingly are and how much in control they are with their own life, when it is crystal clear to me that the opposite is the case. Nobody is happy in themselves and then gives constant advice about anything to someone else.

They can probably sense that I am changing. I have become calmer. I spend much less energy trying to prove myself or convince others of something.

I totally get you, my DM is like that too... It adds to the mental confusion and the self doubt, but I definitely have the same visceral reaction to her affectation and that tells me I'm not crazy: it's not normal to have this reaction from a "loving" exchange with one own's mother... I don't recoil from my cheesy best friend or from my goofy DH, when they tell me lovely things, so I guess I'm not the problem. That's what I'm telling myself right now, after being sent a bizarre message from my own DM and starting to feel the fog again (I'm LC, not NC). So your post is very relatable to me 💛

Absolutely @Happyfarm . I have had a lot of very selfish people in my life. The takers, not givers. I cringe when I think of the things I have done for others seeking validation and approval, only to end up being taken totally for granted. The brother who used me as free therapy for his awful marriage, completely absent for the last ten years or so when I got divorced. The friend that I made a free wedding cake for her daughter who never thanked me. Never hear from the friend unless she wants something. What the hell was I thinking!

I think it's good to step back and look closely at your friendships @Twatalert periodically. I have been shocked at how much baggage friendships I carried around with me unconsciously. I have also been shocked at how much I didn't really like these people deep down. In the same way that I don't like my mother.

Not to let them off the hook, but I think these people are totally oblivious to how selfish and uncaring they are, probably due to their own childhood trauma. You can feel sorry for them but you don't want to pet them!

I think these people are attracted to our tolerant, non confrontational and people pleasing traits that we’ve taken on because we’ve grown up with volatile, overbearing, demanding and toxic individuals. Learning to put boundaries in place, standing our ground, and putting limits on unreasonable behaviour don’t come naturally to us. They sense this, so it can definitely attract the wrong friends.

One benefit of coming to terms with my dysfunctional family, is also recognising these similar relationships in some of my friendships, both past and present. Dealing with my family has also given me the confidence to deal with or finish these friendships.

I’ve started to put boundaries in place with some family members. I’ve not really done much I’ve just backed off because I found I was trying to please them into liking me and it wasn’t really working. I find it hard to accept that people have their own view of you based on their own issues and bias etc etc. If they don’t like the authentic me or don’t want to bother to get to know the me who isn’t just about being pleasing (warts and all) then I’ve come to the conclusion I just need to back off and put my attention to those who do. I’ve done a lot of work on myself and these family members think I am selfish and I should be putting the work into my partner and kids solely. I’m here to serve them. But I am under the opinion it’s not selfish to work on yourself. A better more connected me is a better mum and partner. It means I ask less and need less and I am able to validate myself.

Hi @Happyfarm

It's exactly that. After far too many years, I have now accepted that my family don't accept me and that's on them. I'm fine otherwise. I'm not saying it doesn't play on my mind at times but it's drama caused by them not me.

I could have typed this myself @Dandelionsarefree

@TheHistorian I think we do attract a type of friend and deter the type of friend we actually need.

I now get through it by thinking most friendships aren't forever as you need different things at different times of life.

It's a struggle for me to make new friends and this seems harder the older I get. I am sure I step back to observe and don't trust a lot of the time. I don't make a good initial impression.

School friends fizzled out almost immediately as we all went different ways. Re-connections sparked years later - then the same happened.

Work colleagues (worked at the same place for many years) dwindled a couple of months after I left as we'd lost that common interest.

Also found that some ex-colleagues went resentful and bitter when I left!? If I popped back in to see them, some would just ignore me.

Do we cause this pattern of rejection?

New colleagues aren't sociable outside of work.

How do people make new friendships?!

@Twatalert I think that's amazing. You've overcome so much.

Narc mum strikes again - I’m struggling to not respond but my god it’s so hard.

I was talking to my step dad last night via text (me and him still have a good relationship, despite my narc mother). Anyway, some weird texts came through which I could tell were not from him and from her, I think she had had a drink. One referred to my daughter and said “can you give her a kiss from her nana, I’ll always be her nana no matter what I’ll see her one day”. I just responded to my step dad and said I would speak to him tomorrow. Then another came through saying “love you (my name), yes I have (my step dads) phone last time I’ll text now”.

What is her game here?! I didn’t respond last night and I’m proud of myself, but what is this all about?

It is possible to make new friends but it takes a long time and you really have to sift through the chaff.

The one I have just dropped looked promising, have known her about three years through a hobby group and thought it might be worth developing, but the letting me down without apology was enough for me to back off. I figure if she can do that on the third invite she's not my kind. I also don't want to have to analyze what's going on with her and her partner, not my problem, but it affected me so that's enough to know it's a no go. Unfortunately I think you have to be like this with any relationship. I'm sure the secure background folk have to do this. It's normal boundaries. We find it difficult because of the unswerving loyalty thing.

However, I have made a couple of friends through another hobby group and one of them is fantastic. She's warm and open, not scared to show her emotions. No games. They are out there. You have to take the risk. And it has helped to talk on here because my default is to wonder what I'm doing wrong when it goes wrong.

Funny how we all have similar attitudes and issues, bloody dysfunctional families, the gift that keeps on giving!

@TheHistorian I keep wondering when the secure background folk finally enter my life. Or when I will finally recognise them.

@JustLaura I’ve made my most recent friends through local hobby/interest groups and gathered a couple of lovely ones recently since our move a couple of years ago. I think sometimes similar people/personality types are attracted to similar hobbies/interests. I also have a couple of special friends I’ve gathered over the years. One from a job 25 years ago, and one from meeting with daughters in the same swimming group when little, that friend in particular is a godsend and very giving. She’s having a difficult time at the moment so making sure I’m there for her. But others I’ve drifted away from recently. A very old school friend I have is exhausting and everything is about her and whatever you’ve had happen, she’s had it 100 times worse! So I really limit seeing her now. Another old school mum I realised just talks at me, generally whinging about her own family, villagers and friends, none which I know, so it makes no sense, and again I realised when I come away I’m exhausted and haven’t said a single word. So I limit seeing her too. I now look for non competitive gentle people, otherwise it’s far too demanding!

I gave up on four newish friendships over the past year. And I think it was all mutual. I had been on bumble BFF and that's where I had them from. I did wonder if it's me, because I let go of 4 out of 4 of them, but when I think about my reasons I know we weren't a good fit.

Where do I meet secure background folk (my favourite term now lol). I do bond with other people over our childhood trauma, but I don't want to continue any big trauma patterns. As soon as I get a whiff of being seen as less capable by advice givers, or feel steamrolled (the one who invited herself to my house before inviting me to hers. Then inviting herself to mine for Christmas, all whilst saying I seem introvert and that's why she invites herself because she knows I wouldn't do it. 1000 red flags), or the flaky one or the obviously anxious attached one inviting herself to my house to play video games with a six week notice. Or the racist one who always tried to score higher on anything I said.

I just dont know where to find or how to spot people that are happy to stay in their space and dont just barge into mine. Where a friendship can develop. Someone suggesting 'do you want to come over to my house one day?' and I can then decide to return the favour rather than them just deciding on my behalf because they have somehow convinced themselves they need to manage me into that direction.

I can seem quiet, but I'm not shy. I just listen and observe. Many of the louder and extrovert people have told me they get on better with introverts. I don't feel I get on better with extroverts though.

It's so difficult @Twatalert

I only make 'friends' at work but if they leave work so does the friendship it seems. I'm trying to view it as 'friends are not forever' or 'friends for now'.

I find it difficult when I bump into ex-colleagues though. I feel as though I've been snubbed or dismissed by them so I tend not to speak first. This leads to a situation where either they speak first or we both ignore each other.

More recently when 1 (from the workplace I left) did speak I felt like I was being interviewed. I felt as though the purpose she stopped to talk was to get info on me to gossip. When we said goodbye I realised she now knew x, y and z about me but I knew nothing from her side.

I just don't know how to handle these situations.

Any suggestions welcome!

I’m not sure they need to be of secure family background folk to be decent. Many people are or have been dealing with something. Just people who are self aware and have worked on their trauma and understand it’s not on others to fix. If you go into friendships looking for someone to fix or be something you need I think it’s bound to be doomed. Same like relationships. Before I was aware my trauma was controlling my life I was looking for someone to fix it and to make it better, they were all terrible. My relationship now I stopped looking for a fix and found someone that just made me laugh and was mad like me. Where those people are I don’t know. I don’t think many people are that enlightened to realise they acting out of trauma or unmet needs. My BIL for example is difficult, no friends. He is so desperate to keep hold of the attention of his narc mum that his whole life is trying to please her. So many people stuck in these roles, trying to be the best, look the best, it’s so inauthentic. I seem to be able to spot them everywhere and have trouble connecting to it. I just want authentic no nonsense relationships.

@Happyfarm I agree and I don't think it was meant here that anyone is looking for people from an uncomplicated family. I'm looking for people who can handle themselves and let me handle myself. This doesn't mean that they have no issues, but I dont want to be a platform for a lot of projection or attempts to control.

@JustLaura i didn't learn how to form relationships nor did I learn which relationships not to enter. Simply because my parents had no relationships and I learnt terrible behavioural standards.

Learning all these things in later life is tough. No idea if I will ever figure it out.

Yes, I do think that once you’ve been through neglect and trauma and you work on yourself it’s sort of a catch 22. You understand yourself and issues you’ve been through but you start to able to see it in others also. Many people don’t know, or don’t see weird dynamics at play, perhaps give people way more benefit then they should. I try and spin it into a positive. I save myself a lot of heartache and effort now trying to be liked by people. If I rock up and be myself and people don’t like it then great, don’t have to waste anymore time on them. I am a firm believer that the right people will be attracted to me because I repel the crap controlling messed up people now. It just so happens that the pool of possible friends are small. But that’s ok!

The only advice I can give is that the right people just make you feel easy and comfortable. The wrong people make your body feel wrong. If it makes your body feel funny then that’s that, we need the people we need. My in-laws make my body feel wrong but my in-grandparents don’t so these are the people we see more. I think we just don’t trust the way we feel and we need to trust our bodies because they tell the truth.

I'm not sure the secure people necessarily 'enter' your life. I think what you have to do is, like them, use boundaries to keep out the types that aren't good for you. For me that's people who take and don't give, who are rude or disrespectful, who don't help themselves but moan etc. I think secure folk do this naturally. They have respect for themselves and don't allow other people to use them. So in so far as recognising the 'secure' ones, it's people who respect you and treat you how you treat them.

The potential 'friend' I have just backed off from didn't have the empathy to realise that letting me down at the last minute required an apology at minimum. Doesn't make her the worst person in the world and I will keep her as an acquaintance but I don't want to be friends with someone who does this. It's hurtful and potentially frustrating in the future and I have LOADS of these flakes in my life which has affected my self esteem in the past. Interestingly I have seen this person twice since and it's like nothing happened, oblivious!

In contrast another new friend couldn't make a lunch at the last minute recently because she woke up with a bad headache. She sent both me and our other friend a personal Whatsapp explaining and a heartfelt apology. I felt respected. That's the sort of friendship I want.

Also, having shared interests and values is a great bond for friendships. I have found people I have met at work or college don't necessarily gel outside the environment you meet in. I'm no expert on this by any means but being mindful and having boundaries has definitely worked for me.

That should have had LOADs of flakes. All gone now!

@Happyfarm I'm getting to exactly the same conclusions. That I just trust when I don't feel safe around someone and I don't need to have a good reason in my head. I don't need to have it all figured out. It's all in the body and my body knows before I know anything in my head.

My therapist recently told me that we feel with our body. It makes complete sense but I didn't know it!!

@TheHistorian again, agree. I am still learning how to express myself and my boundaries. Like literally finding the words that describe what I will or will not do. Where I come from you either shout or bottle everything up. Mostly the latter.

Definitely. I have chronic fatigue syndrome now because I put my body through so much unnecessary stress for so long. You can feel as soon as you see someone or sometimes even the mention of their name as to whether it’s a safe relationship or not. If it’s uneasy then I know that this person is wrong for me. There may not be anything wrong with them and they are the right person for someone different. It’s hard to get into my head around the fact that sometimes it isn’t black and white and I’m right they wrong or they right and I’m wrong.

I need open and upfront people who I don’t need to try and understand in my life because I literally don’t have the energy to spend out. My illness means I can’t afford to over do and over think. That’s part of my boundaries and we all have different ones. Lots of people are not honest though I find. I think a good starting point is people like this forum who have similar experiences then going further out into the real world and joining groups of people who understand. A lot of people simply don’t understand how we feel and I accept that, why would they. None of my family or extended family understand me, not even my own brother as he didn’t experience my mum like I did and I didn’t experience my dad like he did.

I will say I find people who haven’t experienced what we have extremely judgmental and really unhelpful and damaging. They have many opinions on things they don’t have a clue on. I do wish people wouldn’t have opinions on others experiences.