August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Burnerz since he has either told you he went NC or it certainly is your understanding that he has I would not contact him every few months. It really won't help him heal, let alone see things from a different perspective.

If this was me it would really aggravate me as it shows my decision is not being taken at face value and boundaries are not being respected. It will do no good.

Burnerz accepting his decision means just that, accepting it. It doesn't mean overstepping his boundaries by trying to contact him. He is no-contact, it's not an ambiguous phrase. No-contact is not "wanting to keep the door open". NC is firmly shutting and bolting that door. If he ever wants to be back in contact he can let you know and at that point it'll be for you to decide if you want to. I know I'm sounding harsh but you need to hear it.

He's NC with you because it's blindingly obvious from your posts that you're an abusive-parent-sympathiser. If you want to be that, that's fine, you can be whoever you want and whatever serves you in life. Actions have consequences though and the consequence of your decision is that your brother has gone NC with you.

He is actually doing the right thing (for himself, which is fine). You speak about him from a place of wrong think. You think he should do what you've done and find a way to excuse your parents behaviour, although you word it "making peace with it". It's almost certainly far healthier for him not to do that. There's nothing wrong with the way he's thinking or the way he's dealing with it.

Read up about flying monkeys. You're bordering on thinking it's ok to be one. It isn't. You're also at risk of becoming one yourself (if you aren't already). It's not a good thing to be as it's actively harmful to those on the receiving end of it.

Your brother will be worried you'll repeat things he's said, to your parents. Whether that's something he's said about them or his childhood, or some current information about himself or his family that he'd prefer they didn't have. As someone who has sympathy for your parents it would be easy for you to justify it to yourself as harmless (it isn't, it's overstepping your brother's boundaries with the act of telling your parents, never mind the potential harm caused to him by them having the information). Your parents will try to manipulate you into it by tugging at your heartstrings. Going NC protects him from this. It also protects him from other flying monkey tactics such as voicing your sympathy for your parents, to him. You're only "in the middle" if you choose to try to position yourself there as a flying monkey.

If you're struggling with his decision, see a therapist to work through your feelings. Don't try to get your brother to do things differently so that your bad feelings go away. Don't put that on him, it's not his responsibility to fix your emotional state, it's your responsibility.

Wow thank you @Twatalert and @SamAndAnnie , I really appreciate your responses. I have done lots of therapy and really your responses have helped more than any of it!!

I've blocked both my sisters on absolutely everything there is no way they can contact me unless they come to my house

I have a narcissistic mother I can't stand, and went LC out of guilt. I was the scapegoat so my sibling is missed terribly by my mother. My other sibling went NC with my parents and then also with me a long time ago.
The way I see it is that we were and still are a very dysfunctional family and that won't change ever. The situation is the result of shit childhood.
I dont try to make contact ever and carry all the burden of visiting my parents and ensure the basics are covered. I hate seing or talking to my mother more than anything else in the world. She is truly vile and has zero self reflection/ awareness. It's shit but it is what it is.
We only live once. We don't choose our families and I wish I had any other family while growing up. But i accept this is the result if it. I am only LC because my parents have no more children and it's purely out if guilt. I wish I was able to go NC too.
Accept the situation as it is. Outside all this turmoil I am able to live a very happy life with my own family.

Hello Everyone, I have posted here in the past under a different user name. I have been pondering lately about the effect having a dysfunctional family has on all of your relationships in your life.

In mine I married a version of my mother (narcissistic, manipulative, dismissive and totally selfish). I have also had a history of one-sided 'friendships', ones where I have done all the running, giving and end up resentful about the lack of reciprocation. Also sad about the lack of mutual care.

After a lot of therapy I have got rid of all the users in my life but I am finding that making new friends is not without its' issues. I have just withdrawn from a newish friendship because they let me down without apology and I'm wary of getting into the 'service human' dynamic again.

Has anyone else experienced this? Are there lots of unreliable people out there generally or do us survivers draw them in?

I haven’t blocked my siblings but don’t contact them except for very brief texts on nieces/nephews birthdays really. I still love them but there’s too many triggers/history, plus toxicity from my mother seeps through via them as they’re still in contact. Sadly the roles my mum forced on us were very different and we had very different childhoods in plain sight as someone else mentioned. I’m also a decade older than my siblings so was an only child up to the age of 10, and was the only one to experience regular & severe physical violence/beatings. Maybe due to mum being younger (21) when she had me, and I was totally unplanned, so I spoilt her partying life? By the time she had my siblings, life was more settled, Dad had climbed the career ladder and he had status and a lot more money (always important to Mum as status is everything). She was still very mentally and emotionally abusive to them, but thankfully not violent.

So I do understand why they might not always understand my journey and I feel my younger sister sometimes resents, misinterprets and underestimates how awful my forced role as family caregiver/caretaker was. The constant pressure to cope and fix all their emotional problems basically led me to a breakdown when I then went NC. This is despite having my own wonderful husband & daughter as support. From the age of 10 I suddenly became useful to my mum rather than an inconvenience as she had two small babies, the beatings did mostly stop and I was treated instead like a servant/hired help. This role has continued. I’m the older, quieter, reliable one to look after everyone’s mental and emotional needs, especially my mum who became suffocating and like a stalker towards me. I was not allowed my own identity, my needs or worries I had to keep to myself, and my life was not my own. I purely existed to serve ‘the family’.

My sister is the scapegoat and subsequently had a different negative experience and then addiction/eating disorder issues over the last 25 years, and once again I was unwillingly pressurised into coping with it all by my Mum. This consisted of being expected to sort out my sister’s issues,(she was understandably quite unpleasant & difficult during this period which was hurtful) and my Mum made a huge drama where it was all about how it affected her. So I think because of these given roles, my sister sometimes mistakenly thinks I was somehow favoured by my mum over her. Mum constantly triangulates and plays us all off against each other.

So in my head my mum has broken all our relationships, my brother is the golden child so doesn’t get the crap my sister and I do and therefore thinks she’s not too bad, plus she’s financed him at certain points. I do see it’s not my siblings fault this is their positions, it’s all caused by my Mum and we’re all damaged.

So I suppose what I’m trying to say in the essay above @Burnerz is your brother most likely needs this NC to be able to move forward and sees things very differently from you. Especially as you’ve come to terms and accepted your parent’s behaviour. I find in my experience, I only get complete peace when I’m not in contact with any of my family or very LC with siblings.

I’ve been fortunate due to the fact that both my husband and I both come from dysfunctional families (domestic violence from his Dad) so that’s made us work towards making a peaceful, calm & happy household for our daughter and breaking the cycle. We also are understanding to each other regarding childhood trauma. However I do agree trust issues for people like us can cause problems when meeting new friends and also perhaps make us withdraw from friendships too early where we feel vulnerable.

I’m in completely the same boat.. I’ve gone very low contact over the last few weeks and om a little worried about her mental state because of it, but surely a decent mother wouldn’t make us feel like they can’t live without us.. as a mum myself, I know letting your children live their lives is part of the relationship too.. and yet my mother has been an absolute drain these last few years wanting to see me and speak to me.. something she wasn’t bothered about when I was a child in boarding school or even when she was living abroad when I had my children I’d hear from her every 3 weeks or so!
I hear you OP, it’s the constant snide bitter remarks isn’t it? My mother is also jealous of the relationship my children have with their other nan.. but that’s only her own fault seeing as she had put so little into my two..
I’m also suffering with terrible guilt about it all but I know the guilt shouldn’t be with me.. there’s no guilt from her.. and never has been..
thank goodness for this outlet because we are all in similar boats and can support one another X

So so true..
my birthed can’t stand our mum either and because he lives a good hour away he can step right back and leave the burden to me.. he’ll see her twice a year tops while I have had to see/speak to her weekly.. it’s been so hard on my MH while m my brother gets to live his life quite peacefully without the constant digs.. he can take over now as it’s his turn.. good luck to them both..

The reason she’s now so needy is because she’s getting old and looking for a support person/crutch. She wants to make sure she has someone caring for her in her old age. Mine was definitely grooming me to do that as my Dad is 10 years older than her and getting creaky and she was lining me up to take his doormat/enabler position.

With guilt I think you do have to deal with it quite clinically in the early days, this becomes second nature as you slowly recover. You may feel guilt, but with your head examine it and see it for the irrational emotional knee jerk reaction it is. You’ve come to the place you are in due to your parents behaviour, not yours. There will always be certain things/events that bring these feelings forward. But they just prove you are human and have empathy unlike many of our parents. None of us would choose this path by choice, we are forced into it by our dysfunctional families. Letting our children fly and have their own happy independent lives is a big part of being a good parent, ours often only want us to purely serve their needs.

Yes I agree with what you mean about having to do the work.

I'm not sure I've withdrawn too early from this particular friendship as I was recognising the signs - extended three invites, none returned , they changed the venue of the second invite to suit themselves, let me down on the third unexpectedly and didn't seem bothered. I trust my instincts on this.

I'm just wondering whether everyone goes through this or do people from dysfunctional families give off some sort of vibe to attract these sort of people? I have made a couple of other friendships, completely different, mutual respect.

Yes this high vigilance we develop from our upbringings mean we often see people like that coming a mile off. My husband always jokes I’m good at summing up people’s characters early on. I do worry I veer on the more cautious side when doing this, but generally I’m proved mostly right. When you’ve had the negative experiences we’ve all had and recognised it, we’re good at seeing the signs and avoiding it again hopefully. However I do wish I could turn off this hyper vigilance, as socially it can be very draining.

In the early days though, before I worked through my family issues and woke up to it, I definitely allowed my family ‘emotional caregiver’ role to spill over into all aspects of my life and had many friends and early boyfriends who were emotional, narcissistic parasites. I think that changes as you find your own strength.

@SkylarkDay , totally agree about the high vigilance. Mine has only come about since therapy. Before, I would let anyone in and being a people pleaser put up with the most outrageous behaviour from other people. I cringe at the things I've done for others. I also collected a whole tribe of takers.

I still wonder if I have a sign on my head that says 'Mug' as these people keep appearing! Can I ask, are your friendships generally healthy and reciprocal?

Over the last 10 years (since waking up to my family dynamics and the initial NC) yes I have reexamined many of my relationships and friendships. I have phased out many of those ‘all taking’ friendships. Emotional vampires as I read somewhere which seemed so spot on. It also made me newly appreciate those special supportive friendships I have. So I guess it’s opened my eyes about healthy friendships and unhealthy friendships. Unhealthy is out, healthy is in and I definitely go for quality over quantity. So yes it made me realise if I’m not putting up with that behaviour from family, why should I from friends. It also explained why I was a magnet to parasitic lame dogs in my youth. I could never work it out. Now I realised they purely saw me as a little support unit on legs, nothing more.

Think I definitely had a neon flashing light above my head in the past saying ‘mug!’ 😂

Just wanted to share some of the tik tok accounts I follow:

marniegrundman - a abuse survivor and therapist. Often talks about her childhood experience and calls out BS comments on her account

smokingandthinking6 - a abuse survivor, who turned to drugs, got clean and is NC. Lots of videos and narcissim, some are a bit abstract, which I like.

fiftiesrediscovery - a daughter and mother, whose son(s) are NC and she has been NC or LC with her mother. She's healing, taking full accountability. Great insight into how a mother should deal with her adult child's NC decision.

iamzoelouisee - abuse survivor, who is very LC I believe and is now raising her young son completely differently.

helenvilliersma - a therapist focussing on narcissistic abuse. Good for a reality check.

fired_mom - I cannot stand following her, but she pops up on my page some times. In my opinion, a prime example of a mother in denial. Her son (maybe more than one) is NC and I cannot even begin to describe her take on it. In the comments, there will be fellow estranged mothers and it will be immediately clear why their children have gone NC. Many mothers will describe their children along the lines of selfish, and not understanding that family means you got to work through things etc. Then there are adult children who call them out on their BS. She is a semi interesting project to me because other than my own I have no example of a narcisstic mother giving insight into her distorted way of thinking. This mother recently described her son as 'having a distorted view on his life/childhood' or some crap like that.

@User543211

@Twatalert I do agree it helps enormously to hear about other people’s NM & dysfunctional families etc. You realise it’s a real stereotype and validates what you see & feel with your own, and even opens your eyes into things you never noticed in your own family before. This thread has been a real resource & rock in that respect and not made me feel alone. Always so grateful for everybody sharing things which must be so painful.

@Twatalert are there any tiktok accounts you would recommend for narc siblings?

@SkylarkDay , thank you for sharing. I think it's a shame that we have to be hyper vigilant when others from secure backgrounds just take it for granted, they flick off the users without a second thought. I'm also quality over quantity, a great club to be in! 😊

Also, to those initially struggling with NC, I would say hang in there and one of the major benefits long term apart from obviously stopping constant abuse and triggering from family, is a growth in self confidence/belief in yourself. I now find I have the ability to stand up to people and situations I would never have done so previously, and just more confidence in trying/doing things in general. It’s a hard journey but imo definitely worth it. Long term it’s very liberating.

I can just say ' thank you to you all' this is so therapeutic, realise am still healing, am 60+ nc 13 years, and wow reading this page is uplifting to me, so last night was thinking, can we do a, what was the first thing you changed ' stop the cycle ' moment as an adult,

Mine,
New mum 24 yrs old, so I left home at 16 there was never ever any photos of me growing up not one, no baby ones no school ones nothing, first ever photo of me was at 16 with a friend, so young so damage, I looked so sad, remember my only photo of me,
So I made memory boxes for both my children, treated us to a nice Camara, this was early 80s yes when you put your reel into a shop to be developed,

Put albums together, 1 yr 2 yr 3 yr , yes over compensated, collected all nursery/ school photos in the box/ every school report good and bad, they went in that box all dated, collected most little painting/ hand made items they came home from school with, first outfits as babies the lot you name it I saved it, with the photo albums now again wrote a little post it not to keep inside a photo for them to read later on,
My oh my this was therapeutic to me, collecting memories for them,
My point is I didn't have a photo to compare me to my children so couldn't see if they looked like me as a 3 yr old, both my children have these wonderful memories now and can compare photos with their children, I could never do, we laugh at there memories, cried happy tears at the little note I wrote, just lovely little, I love you, am so proud of you notes,
So what's the first thing you guys done to 'stop the cycle '

@Omgblueskys thats such a lovely thing to do and for your children to have for future generations as well. It’s like resetting the pattern.

For me as soon as I had my daughter I saw how my upbringing was so wrong, it was my lightbulb moment. My daughter’s happiness & contentment were and are, the absolute centre of my world, whereas my Mum just terrorised, resented and physically attacked me. I tried to be the complete opposite of her which luckily I’ve found very easy. I’ve made sure I’ve attended every school play, performance and anything like that, whereas my mum use to laugh and brag in front of me about how she wasn’t going to that boring thing. Basically, I’ve tried my hardest to make my daughter feel valued for whoever she is, that’s the difference.

I did have childhood photos, but my mum burned all the ones of me years ago when I first went NC and bragged about it to my siblings. Doesn’t matter what disagreements I have with my daughter in the future, I could never imagine doing something so evil and really all it did, was confirm I was right about her being a Psychopath

@TortillasAndSalsa not currently, no. Luckily I am not affected by this.

No problem thank you for responding