He still hasn't proposed - I really need some help

[Elliegeez]

The bottom line is that we've been together 13 years and he has still not proposed.

We talked about it in the early days, we both said we wanted to be married one day.

I wanted it to be a surprise so I never wanted to talk about it, I just assumed he would do it.

Then time marched on...

I imagined that he was planning to do it on this holiday, or that trip, or that Christmas.

Then it had been so long that it seemed hard to start the conversation. The longer I leave it, the harder it is. I just don't know how to start the conversation.

I'm sure that we want to be together forever and that we were just meant to be but now I'm starting to feel so angry and upset that I think it's affecting our relationship.

I've tried hints like looking at rings, showing him rings. I even said over a year ago that I wanted to be married by the time I was 40 he said "you better move quick then" and I said "no you better move quick". Then I waited....then I turned 40.

I know he doesn't know how much it's upsetting me and I know I need to talk about it, I just don't know how.

What should I say first? What situation? I've tried just getting drunk, hoping it would fall out, but that didn't work either.

Anytime we watch anything with a wedding or a proposal I just feel so sad.

Please help me.

I think there is a big issue with people in there late 30s early 40s especially after breaking up after a LTR that they just settle for the next reasonable partner because they want children. They settle for partners they wouldn't even look twice at in there 20s.

Yup, i'm one of those.

You don't get taught this shit in school unfortunately. Difference being i'm not going to settle, fuck that. I see enough women here who got married at a "reasonable time" and have children 9 and 11 or something and oh look, hubby is having an affair.

People act like if you are part of the "crowd" and get married "not late" then it'll all work out wonderfully. Er yeah... sure it will.

Some men in their 30s and early 40s who say they don’t want marriage or kids actually mean “ I don’t want marriage or kids yet “.

They want a partner now but they know that most women won’t hang on for 10 or 15 years waiting to see if they change their minds.

So they find some poor woman Miss Right Now who they can happily string alone for years wigh vague promises / future faking. That means they have her on the back burner if they never meet anyone better and if they do, they have no ties so it’s relatively easy to split up when they meet Miss Right.

And of course they don’t have the same pressure of biology - reasonably presentable men well into their 40s know that they can easily find a single woman in her 30s who is desperate to have children with him.

So the combination of biology and cultural norms works well for men and against women .

men can have kids a lot later
there’s no stigma for child free men
men earn more than women, esp in their 30s
men can easily walk away from unwanted children with no financial or social penalty
men get to control the timing of marriage through “proposal” culture
It’s seen as reasonable for men to avoid marriage because they don’t want a wedding, because of the commercialisation of weddings
women have a different timescale for having children
many women are prepared for do wifework and make career sacrifices without marriage ( I’ve yet to hear of a man who has done this )
women are prepare to marry a much older man but not vice versa
woman carry most of not all of the physical, financial, social and career costs of pregnancy , childbirth, childcare and child rearing

So it often doenst work out well for women like the OP. Her boyfriend knows he can walk away at any time, if he meets someone else or decides he wants kids. In fact there will someone waiting to lap up his sad story of how his ex never wanted marriage/ kids and he’s so happy to have finally met someone to make all his dreams come true 🙄

Unfortunately it works the other way around too pp.

Men telling you they don't want kids because they've never given it much thought. Because as men, they don't have to.

So you get into what you assume is a childfree relationship and then - they uturn. They seem to think that you would change your mind, because as a woman you must actually want children.

There are pitfalls either side when dating. Whether you want kids or not.

I'm sure lots of women get into things where they assume the man will change his mind too.

I agree, @Catoo
I very much respect OP not wanting to discuss her reasons for not wanting a family and am aware she said he's "happy with this", but frankly the delusion seems so strong that she's already telling herself their "discussion" has provoked in him a green light to propose, so who knows?

It's a hell of a shame, but what they each want appears so hugely opposed that I really don't see any way of this ending happily

I have several friends who were very focused on having the "right" things at the "right time". I got a lot of stick from them for doing things on a different timeline to them.

They all settled for the first serious relationship they had. Because if they didn't get married by X age they wouldn't be able to have the dream family.

All of those particular friends are now married with at least two kids. And they're all miserable (bar one, who it does seem to have worked out for). Any one of them could have started one of the typical "I'm running ragged with the kids and the house while DH just watches TV after work" threads you see on here. One of them, her husband actually told her he'd rather be at work than at home.

People need to live a life that makes them happy. Not the one they think they're supposed to have.

The same as everyone else’s, that if someone else takes his fancy in the next 5 years he’ll likely marry quickly and have children.

WTF... well that's an assumption and a half.
Get in the sea.

Lovely.

That’s a horrible thing to say to someone trying to explain something that was perfectly clear.. Well done. Go and learn some manners.

OP, it seems a big leap to say your sofa chat has changed his mind and given him the go ahead to propose. You’ve still got nothing concrete, and are still in the position of hanging around and hoping.

Why the reticence to just address this issue and ask for what you want? You’ll feel terrible in a few months time if nothing changes!

Truth!

No matter how much equality is seen in society between men and women the biological element will remain.

Comes back to as always women having a low bar of men so men just get away with it.

Most marriages turn into marriages of convinence in the end the older people get the harder it is to start again.

'What should I say first? What situation? I've tried just getting drunk, hoping it would fall out, but that didn't work either. '

@Elliegeez

This stood out to me. For you to feel like you need to be drunk to 'spill out' how you feel to your life long partner that you want to marry, is a huge red flag.
What don't you feel like you can talk to him?

It doesn't seem like you're really that comfortable. And perhaps he's too comfortable.

OP, after the hints you gave him and saying you wanted to be married by the time you were 40, do you really think he needed a green light to propose? It sounds like he already had one.

I hope he will propose as you hope for, but if he doesn’t, maybe the only way he will marry you is if he knows you will leave if he doesn’t. You know your own situation best as to whether it would be a good idea to marry him in those circumstances.

Is there something putting him off marriage, like did his parents get divorced?

If marriage isn't that important to you after all, then why have you been waiting for him to propose for so long?
I'm assuming your name is on the mortgage and you have wills etc?
If so, just buy yourself a diamond ring!
Your update doesn't actually change anything.

I would not describe it as wanting a partner. They want a female, one they find reasonably attractive and get along with, to warm their bed at night.

Men have a much lower benchmark than women, they want someone easy going do most of the childcare and gives them regular sex without making it hard work.

@GingerPirate bit harsh and disingenuous.

My DP was like this op and it put me off. We’re still together but it did erode the relationship and demonstrated a power imbalance that had crept up for various reasons.

He doesn't sound like he wants to marry you. For that reason, I wouldn't bother asking him either. It'll either be a no, he'll tell you he had some perfect plan that now you've ruined or he'll say yes but worm his way out of it.

This.
My ‘fiance’ and I have been together for nearly 15 years.
On our second anniversary we got engaged. He never asked me to marry him.
We were away for the weekend and got nutted and I said that as it was a leap year, I was planning to propose at some point later in the year and that I’d like him to let me down gently before I did it if he wasn’t going to say yes.
He came back with he’d been looking at rings because he wanted to bring one with him but he didn’t know which one to pick and he wanted me to go shopping with him.

Well of course I’ve gone all giddy. “You want to get engaged?” I said and he said that he did and I was overjoyed.
Someone actually saw me as wife material. I could not believe it.

As I said above, ‘fiance’, because we’re probably not ever going to marry. I kind of find wearing my engagement ring a bit like false advertisement lol not that I’m looking for anyone else, it’s just a joke 🤷🏻‍♀️
We have two children. Children were his idea. I think that’s worth more than marriage and if we were to ever split up, no messy divorce.

I used to want to be made up to the nines and go bridal shopping and look incredible for the day but nowadays, I’m too hot and sweaty for that lol

Have you sorted your finances so you can split without mess?

If you are not married and have not sorted your finances then a break-up will be far messier than a divorce.