If you are a ‘professionally accomplished’ woman, how do you meet men?

[ElleintheWoods]

Just to pre-empt, I don’t think ‘success’ (titles, possessions and other things society sees as such) matters and everyone is the same. However, more and more, men and people in my life seem to highlight that it still does matter in today’s society.

In my 20s I was a top 10 university graduate working in corporate London with HNWIs, so I used to think everyone was like that and that was normal life (young and naïve, sorry!). I’ve had 2 significant long-term relationships (5+ years) and a few shorter but still serious and enjoyable ones. Never really had bad experiences with men.

I then took a step back and moved to the countryside. I’m quite a friendly and bubbly person. However, I’ve found that men see me as a bit of an alien once they get to know my background. I play my background down a lot now that I’ve found it can alienate people, but obviously things do come out once you get to know someone/ people have Google. I was in a long-term relationship with a mechanic and he would make ‘how the other half live’ comments as a joke regularly. He was also ashamed of his house and family initially. I’ve also had the ‘why would someone like you want to be with someone like me’ comment from more than one guy. Frustratedly, I asked a male friend why guys like him don’t pursue me even though they seem interested and he said ‘I’d feel like I’m punching a bit/ long-term I’d feel lesser than you’.

So it seems that although I was open to dating anyone, it doesn’t seem many men are open to dating a woman who is more professionally accomplished than them. I’m also from Denmark where ‘class/ background’ generally is a lot less at the forefront of people’s minds and it’s common for women to be dominant.

Then I met someone who seemed perfect. Committed to the mission of using his skills to improve people’s lives, had worked abroad like me, on the board of a household name company, very varied interests, deep thinker, similar childhood experiences. We had what I’d regard as the perfect relationship – theatre, shows, weekends away attending cultural events and exploring new places, good food, talking about ideas, philosophy, politics... I could be fully myself around him and share the same values. My favourite moment in our relationship was a few weeks in when he had a huge presentation at work and he called me afterwards and talked about it for an hour – it may sound boring but I knew then this was someone I could relate to. It also made me feel close to him that I was the one he wanted to share his accomplishment with.

Ultimately it did not work out but it got me thinking... I felt much more ‘at home’ with someone like that than where I had tried to force a relationship with someone very different and had to lock away parts of myself to fit in with their family and friends. So maybe it’s just easier for me to try dating men who aren’t ashamed to be ambitious and want to make a difference in society, and who like arts, classical music etc

So 2 questions to the thread:
1. If you are ‘professionally successful’, how do you feel that affects your personal life?
2. Where have you met men that pique your interest/ you’ve settled down with?

Class still has a lot of effects in Britain. I’m from a working-class family who mainly stayed around where we were brought up. I left home, got into a profession and most of my friends are middle class.

I had a long and very happy relationship with a man who stayed in manual work. We loved each other, but eventually split over long-term issues that weren’t class-related: city/ country, wanting/ not wanting children, importance of career plans etc. But I wonder now how much was influenced by underlying class-linked values and expectations?

Met my DH in our 40s through friends, which I think is a good route, but a bit difficult when you’re living a distance from your closest friends. Shared interests and values are important, so I back joining interest groups and volunteering (if you have time).

Best of luck, OP.

I think you over-estimate the capacity of the average kid to sit through a day of polo!

Those would be their weekend cars, I remember meeting a university friend who is a successful surgeon who was horrified that DH and I only had one car between us. Their wives will have the family car at home to ferry the kids about.

Also if they were all driving then they would not be drinking, sounds like a fairly serious sport-focussed outing to me.

That’s interesting - I guess we have very different experiences!

Most people I know and work with - all in the top 1% of earners- don’t have a second “weekend” car. They just have super expensive (£100K+) Land Rovers, BMWs and Porsches and the like. Actually not a single one of them has a car that might suggest to someone they are single - ie the Porsche carerra we saw yesterday - typically it is the car of choice for single people amongst those I work with.

The event was packed with families with kids, picnics (and even these guys had a champagne bucket with them) so I don’t know that it is too long for kids to watch - the polo match is anywhere between 1-3 hours. But I agree definitely not for young kids for sure.

yes I agree that not all women would like it. I didn’t think it was actually a conversation opener. I think the man (he was about 50) just wanted to say I looked nice and carry on. A bit like how a woman would tell another woman they look lovely in their dress, and then just carry on. This happens a lot in everyday life, right?

I used to work all across Southern Europe, where telling a woman they look good is really common. For example at the start of a business meeting people would exchange quite overt compliments about how people look, both men and women. I’ve been told things at work that in the UK would certainly be classed as harassment. Cultural difference.

Having said that, I get the ‘you look nice’ conversation openers quite often in the UK too. I tend to just say ‘thank you’ and carry on as usually the kind of men that do this are a bit sleazy/ chat to anything that moves. But it’s widespread. Come to think of it often it’s foreign men that use it though, or British men in a bar!

I have heard from couples though that their initial attraction and/or approach was looks based.

I’m the same as you, I’ve only experienced looks-based initial attraction once in my life. So I don’t like looks-based approaches (thus no OLD) and only really find myself attracted to someone after some time talking. Obviously looks play some role, but a less prominent one.

I’m not sure how much you can go by cars!

I’m just thinking of my exes. 2 are currently single and have a big family type car because of their hobbies. 1 has children but usually drives a 2-seater, he just likes fun cars and going on weekend road trips.

It’s a bit step going over to talk to a stranger, it’s 2024! Wouldn’t read too much into it, next time 😉

Thank you for your wishes 😊

It’s a bit odd being somewhere in between isn’t it? It’s similar as a foreigner, people try to put you into a class box, and I don’t seem to fit neatly into any.

Can I ask where each of you stood on those issues? I can guess but would be interested to hear more.

Sorry if it’s a stereotype but there’s certain qualities I like about working-class guys. I’ve found them sincere and straightforward, being quite up front about being into you (too much so sometimes!). Good relationship material, eg cooking for you, offering help right away if you as much as mention an issue with your car, a leaky tap etc. Quality time together is more important than solving a work issue for them. I find that men in professional jobs sometimes tend to overthink and over complicate. I generalise but that’s just my personal experience, the ones I’ve got to know have been genuine, lovely men.

However there are just elements in my life where they’ve found it tough to fit in. Eg a wedding in my family would likely be a dressy affair in a French castle, and many guests would feel the need to talk about how important they are in company x or y as CEO or VP. You need to be very comfortable with yourself to tolerate this. Unfortunately I do find that many ‘successful’ people (well, certainly some people in my family, and their friends) have very superior attitudes and express them when they think they’re among peers.

I’m a professional but not a very busy one - as you can tell by me being on Mumsnet before midday 😂 So plenty of time for hobbies and dating.

A bit like how a woman would tell another woman they look lovely in their dress, and then just carry on. This happens a lot in everyday life, right?

I think that there is a huge difference between a straight woman complimenting how another woman looks in a dress, and a straight man doing the same.

The woman is saying “I would love to have a dress like that and look like you”

The man is saying “I would like to get you out of that dress and have sex with you”.

The former is nice, the latter is grim.

Don’t kid yourself that a man just wants to give a random compliment because it’s a nice thing to do. Why would a woman care that a random man thinks she looks nice? If he then just wanders off that’s even worse, surely? It’s tantamount to informing her that she’s not worth actually talking to but will make great wank fodder for later.

I’m surprised you consider OLD to be looks-based. How so, when you have access to lots of the person’s thoughts and personality there in their profile?

We met when both junior staff working at a very well respected University. We were friends for a while before. Your observation of people wandering round bookshops and having debates, that’s us with a big lot of walking and singing to horses in fields and a love of board and video games and crosswords. We also have a perfectly acceptable sense of humour but some stuff that we only share with each other.

Once people are about 35 many are coupled so the pool is just smaller. It’s why anyone who really wants marriage or a LTR and especially children should never ever waste time with any relationship that will obviously not work. I had a year and a bit with a wonderful guy but religious differences made it hard out of the University student bubble. He wanted to carry on and fight all the parents about it. You need to weigh up effort versus outcome.

I was born in the UK but have a mixed heritage background. So I understand perfectly well societal norms here though very different and far more direct in my Father's culture. I do talk to people and they talk to me, I give off some sort of vibe that people like. DH has joked I’m like Snow White calling all the forest animals. I will warn you asking an internet forum whilst people can be more honest and quite frankly brutal, online forums have a higher percentage of the socially awkward. I mean a man has arrived and will be ruffling feathers and has posted some unpleasant stuff but some men do think like that as much as women don’t want to read that. I mean the easy answer if just don’t date them.

@Username40303

That was one of the funniest things I've read on here. Good for you for being able to get into the heads of really thick men!

I’m not so sure. I’m just used to it being fairly normal, men saying women look nice without any agenda. I spend a lot of time around heterosexual men, men I’m close friends with, men from a Spanish/Italian background, and consider it fairly standard behaviour. It’s actually been a conversation with Latino male friends, how in their culture it’s expected to tell a woman they look great, but how in the UK/ more broadly Northern Europe, you have to say ‘your dress looks nice’ or you could cause offence/ misunderstanding. These are men that live and work cross-culturally. Actually even in Scandinavia it’s considered good manners to tell women they look nice when greeting at a party or similar, at least in my generation boys were raised to do that.

Because OLD is picture led and I’d imagine if people don’t instantly like what they see, they’ll swipe past. You get about 5 seconds on each profile and unless the initial picture drags you to dig deeper. For example, if a guy’s profile pic is a topless gym selfie, it’s a left from me - although underneath it they could be a good match.

And I’m not saying this because I didn’t get any matches - I just tend to catch the eye of quite looks-driven guys on there and not really the type I’m looking for. I don’t think the type I’m looking for is on OLD.

That sounds really lovely, sounds like you’ve done really well. That sounds pretty much like my perfect relationship.

I had it to a degree with my long-term ex but it felt too much like just friendship at some point, and like we weren’t naturally fitting into each others’ worlds.

Thanks for the warning - I have a pretty thick skin and find some of the type of comments you’ve mentioned quite entertaining. This is not an invite to write horrible comments of course! The rich tapestry of Mumsnet is going to have a broad range of opinions and I don’t expect everyone to have the same views as me at all.

The reason why I’m quite positive is that actually, most older people I know and can relate to haven’t stayed in their first marriage and have instead had a lovely 2nd marriage/ partnership. I know very few people who are still together with their uni sweetheart, most settled down with someone of similar age and standing in late 30s. It doesn’t take a huge range of people for that to happen, sometimes you just meet someone who gets you - just helps to increase the odds of that happening!

I was talking specifically about a man complimenting the dress/looks of a woman he does not know. Agree it’s fine between friends or colleagues.

I'm a bloke, late 30s, married with three kids... if my marriage failed, I'd be looking for an intelligent, successful, and financially secure partner. Sorry if that sounds obtuse, but no point beating about the bush. In life I value experiences rather than anything 'material'. For example, what matters to me is travel and culture and wanting to explore more of the world. I earn a decent amount (c. 70k in the north of England) but not enough to fully support someone else and I think the older you get, the less willing you are to sacrifice your own needs and wants.

Absolutely! Next time we plan to bring cakes, scones, home made lemonade and the like to have something to fuel the conversation.

without reading the whole thread i'd say pretty much like us uneducated and lesser mortals do!

you might find it a bit easier if you get off your high horse though.. you won't find someone with an attitude of i'm much better than you are.

This is genuinely funny. Well done, @Username40303. The spelling and syntax are a delicious addition. Have you ever actually spent time around anyone of either sex who went to university, let alone any of the radical Marxist feminists you claim lecture theatres are so full of? Do you think that ‘successful men’ (who, for instance did an MBA, law or a medical degree at university), really want to go out with Chloe from the chipper?

What about @Lonbarmos who is male and says that if his marriage ended he’d be looking for an intelligent, successful and financially secure partner?

It’s fascinating that you seem to see female education and career success as ‘baggage’, and university as involving debt and promiscuity. Do you think male university graduates are just as likely to be riddled with debt and VD?

Can I ask where each of you stood on those issues? I can guess but would be interested to hear more.

You mean the city/ country difference etc? He was a country boy through and through, whereas I loved city life. I wanted children at some later stage, but he was adamant that he didn’t ever.

We were in our 20s when we met, both doing casual work to fund our travelling lifestyles, but I knew I’d want to return eventually to the occupation I’d trained for. Actually I realised as I wrote , how middle-class that is! Or maybe it’s especially because I’d been given a chance to stay in education and have the sort of opportunities my parents couldn’t dream of.

I agree about working class men, thinking of my male relatives and others. Obviously there are good and bad, as in any demographic group. But most I know take for granted that they should do practical things for you and be reliable! And some of my worst relationships have been with men who had PhDs.

😂

Perhaps if you have high educational attainment from an early age, it’s trained into you that you mustn’t waste it and you almost can’t imagine another way of living, thus ‘returning to the occupation you trained for’, right?

As you say, there’s all kinds of types across all demographics and I’ve come across all kinds, but the men without a degree I’ve dated have probably been the most romantic/ sweet. I learned and grew a lot alongside my ex who had just a few GCSEs, he was wiser than me in lots of ways and offered new perspectives.

Most of my dating life I’ve dated PhDs and most of my close friends are PhDs. You need to be a particular kind of character with a very singular focus to complete a thesis, it’s not very collaborative in most cases, quite a solitary pursuit. I like these kinds of guys as I can be quite similar, but can see how they aren’t the easiest to date. They don’t usually care about domestic stuff or outings too much if there’s serious science to be done! It can be very similar to dating Sheldon to a comic degree!

Bringing this thread back to life with an update. Unfortunately what I said in my OP just seems to prove true time and time again. I’d have really hoped times had moved on in 2024.

I dated 2 guys in the last few months. One is a senior executive type, on paper a good fit. We got on really well and enjoyed his company, but I stopped making time for him.

Truth is, I was smitten with a guy at work and that’s why I lost interest. Lots in common, so much flirting, endless conversations. Cautiously started dating after a couple of months of this.

Obviously what has happened is he’s done the whole ‘we just aren’t on the same level’/ ‘you’ve accomplished so much with your life’ chat and I think it’s over before even starting. Him: lower earner than me, no degree, working-class background. Also gorgeous, interesting, curious, well-traveled, kind, lovely, hard worker, a lot of common ground.

Honestly, just feel so disheartened. I can’t hide away or deny my past, I’d just love for someone normal to see past it and embrace the real me.

Unless of course perhaps I’m a horrible, entitled person underneath and they’re just making excuses.

I bet you now we’ll still remain friends with this guy but he won’t date me.

@ElleintheWoods - oh that’s a real shame as I was rooting for you!

It’s intriguing that you did meet at work if you have such different education and other background. Is he in a support function?

Everyone I work with has at least a masters degree, is white/male and middle or upper class - I guess that’s a lot of law/finance generally.

I think this is true, not just of romantic relationships, but in friendships as well, though, if you are accomplished, have social status through your job, and so on, then you make other people feel self-conscious, even if you say very little about it and are very nice and down to earth. It's even more the case for successful women finding men to date.

It is what it is.

I don't think you can shift it.

I gave you my advice last time around which still stands which is that looking in the countryside, where there are a lot of people with fairly conventional social boundaries and with a shortage of people will always be a struggle, though it's always still worth looking. The nearest university town might be better bet.

I have the same problem, but am older than you and already had my family, but there aren't a queue of men happy to overlook the difference and congratulate me on my career success where I live which is also more remote. I don't know the solution, I wish I did!

I'm sorry to hear this - I have been following your story and was also rooting for you. It might be that this is just a wobble of insecurity from him, but whatever happens not all men are like this. I commented upthread that my partner, who left school with no GSCEs and whose background couldn't be more different to mine, is so proud of me and sees my education and professional success as part of my attraction. Really wishing you well.

Thanks for your messages guys, I’ve just woken up feeling fragile and they’ve genuinely made me feel better ❤️‍🩹

@occhiazzurri Most of us have advanced degrees but he got a foot in the door after school and worked his way up. It’s of no importance to me anyway, but I didn’t even know these things about him until he told me quite recently. The manner in which he told me made it quite obvious he was self-conscious about it.

@WayOutOfLine Thanks 😊 I work in a city and am close to another very big city, so that’s no so much an obstacle. The boy is a city boy… However it’s not London so it is a little bit different in ways. People here often say ‘oh I assumed you were from London’ round here to me, which probably isn’t a good thing 🙈

@RockingBeebo thank you. I feel like people make too much of education/ family background around here and I’m glad it’s not an issue for you guys. Now, about the wobble… I’ve woken up to a message from him and can see it’s a long one and sent at antisocial hours. I know he really likes me based on the last few months, but there’s a time when these wobbles need to stop and he needs to trust himself.