If you are a ‘professionally accomplished’ woman, how do you meet men?

[ElleintheWoods]

Just to pre-empt, I don’t think ‘success’ (titles, possessions and other things society sees as such) matters and everyone is the same. However, more and more, men and people in my life seem to highlight that it still does matter in today’s society.

In my 20s I was a top 10 university graduate working in corporate London with HNWIs, so I used to think everyone was like that and that was normal life (young and naïve, sorry!). I’ve had 2 significant long-term relationships (5+ years) and a few shorter but still serious and enjoyable ones. Never really had bad experiences with men.

I then took a step back and moved to the countryside. I’m quite a friendly and bubbly person. However, I’ve found that men see me as a bit of an alien once they get to know my background. I play my background down a lot now that I’ve found it can alienate people, but obviously things do come out once you get to know someone/ people have Google. I was in a long-term relationship with a mechanic and he would make ‘how the other half live’ comments as a joke regularly. He was also ashamed of his house and family initially. I’ve also had the ‘why would someone like you want to be with someone like me’ comment from more than one guy. Frustratedly, I asked a male friend why guys like him don’t pursue me even though they seem interested and he said ‘I’d feel like I’m punching a bit/ long-term I’d feel lesser than you’.

So it seems that although I was open to dating anyone, it doesn’t seem many men are open to dating a woman who is more professionally accomplished than them. I’m also from Denmark where ‘class/ background’ generally is a lot less at the forefront of people’s minds and it’s common for women to be dominant.

Then I met someone who seemed perfect. Committed to the mission of using his skills to improve people’s lives, had worked abroad like me, on the board of a household name company, very varied interests, deep thinker, similar childhood experiences. We had what I’d regard as the perfect relationship – theatre, shows, weekends away attending cultural events and exploring new places, good food, talking about ideas, philosophy, politics... I could be fully myself around him and share the same values. My favourite moment in our relationship was a few weeks in when he had a huge presentation at work and he called me afterwards and talked about it for an hour – it may sound boring but I knew then this was someone I could relate to. It also made me feel close to him that I was the one he wanted to share his accomplishment with.

Ultimately it did not work out but it got me thinking... I felt much more ‘at home’ with someone like that than where I had tried to force a relationship with someone very different and had to lock away parts of myself to fit in with their family and friends. So maybe it’s just easier for me to try dating men who aren’t ashamed to be ambitious and want to make a difference in society, and who like arts, classical music etc

So 2 questions to the thread:
1. If you are ‘professionally successful’, how do you feel that affects your personal life?
2. Where have you met men that pique your interest/ you’ve settled down with?

As a European who has also lived in the US, I completely agree with your observation about the cultural differences in gender and relationship roles. I have found a very significant difference in expectations around women having to take a step back in their career/work part time/being the primary caretaker of children and family life. Most of my colleagues have spouses that either don’t work/work part time or are in more flexible professions slouch as marketing/yoga teacher etc. And that doesn’t change even when the high earning spouse loses their job- a friend of mine continues to be the primary person looking after kids and doing all the family admin, working part time even after the high earning husband lost his job and now only works part time as a consultant.

Interesting. I imagine that between Europe and the US there’s probably an even bigger difference! (I’ve been to the US extensively but not dated any American guys).

How would you say this manifests in early dating? Did you date American men/ found yourself ‘lost in translation’ so to speak?

For example in Scandinavia there isn’t much of a ‘dating’ culture, as in a man asking a woman on a date. And it’s very normal for a woman to make the first move (Scandi men are quite passive) or plan dates or text first. There are other things but I have been told someone who has mostly dated Brits may find it hard to adjust to a woman assuming a more dominant/ proactive role and not having the ‘women do this, men do that’ mindset.

My experience in the US was that men were much more likely to strike a conversation/approach someone in real life. People do talk to strangers there! I was in the US last December and ended up chatting to a wide range of men and women - anywhere from Whole Foods to Nieman Marcus to the coffee shop next to my hotel to the queue in the office canteen. Now this was meeting people IRL outside of a dating context so I don’t know whether OLD is any different.
Experience in the UK is a bit mixed, and I think it depends on your age ultimately and whether you are dealing with an A-type personality and/or someone with lots of options. I have friends in relationships and/or getting married to British men they met in real life and made a move on despite current dating trends (particularly on OLD). So clearly this approach works in real life for some women. Equally I have friends who have made a first move and it hasn’t gone anywhere. My personal experience - briefly with OLD or IRL- is that if I didn’t initiate contact and/or plan dates nothing ever happened. So I think you can deduct from this that single men over the age of 35 can be pretty passive here too but perhaps (i) they just want to be left alone then if they aren’t initiating contact and/or making plans or (II) they have so many options they don’t need to do anything because lots of women are doing all the work. With A-type personalities and those 6’5” in finance making a move never works because they get approached by so many women all the time it is pretty pointless.
As the pool of single people shrinks with age I think there is a lot more competition for single men so women have to take a more active role in approaching men. I am not sure that it actually works since I haven’t been successful ultimately but if I didn’t try I wouldn’t have been on a single date over the past ten years.

@occhiazzurri So I think you can deduct from this that single men over the age of 35 can be pretty passive here too but perhaps (i) they just want to be left alone then if they aren’t initiating contact and/or making plans or (II) they have so many options they don’t need to do anything because lots of women are doing all the work.

Another reason for single men not disturbing women is because it is not socially acceptable.

I assure you there are no men over 35 who have loads of women "doing all the work" for them.

Haha I like your post, made me giggle. Are you Italian by any chance? Of course you don't have to say :)

Definitely Americans love to strike up a conversation. I imagine that in dating people follow a lot of rules though? I think this because all the dating 'trends'/'rules' originate from American shows and films and have flooded into our culture. For example 'if you buy a girl a drink and she accepts, she's interested' or 'sex on third date'. I wonder how true that is, and is there a difference between big coastal cities and the middle.

I was reading an American women's forum (well, Reddit) recently and they were saying how dating in Scandinavia seems insane to them, e.g. how nobody would go on a full-on dinner date in Scandinavia early on, or how men don't chase women. I was just wondering if this would represent typical American relationships or was this just a very 'trad wife' type conversation.

From what you are saying though, it seems that the expectations are very traditional?

I have a similar experience to you in terms of having to put work in to get who you want. To be brutally honest when I see someone I like/want, if they don't move quick enough, I will, and I get the guy. Life's too short to be waiting around for someone else to take action. Just recently though, nobody is catching my eye in that way, I always see some reason why it wouldn't work very quickly, and I wonder what's going on with me. Suppose I do like my way of life now and I'd like to only be with someone that fits into it or motivates me to become a better version of myself.

P.S. 6ft 5 is insanely tall, I know it's a joke/expression but do men over 6ft 2 really get a lot of interest? For me 6ft 2 is already really tall, how does one even kiss them? 😂

It's a shame it's not socially acceptable though. You're right that it gets complained about a lot but it's also romantic when they do. One of my friends (certainly type A) told us a story about how he spotted a woman in a London hotel and simply couldn't take his eyes off her, he never usually does this, but went over, introduced himself and gave him his business card, in a tasteful way. We thought it was quite brave and romantic, as he clearly would have kicked himself walking out of that room without speaking to her.

But I appreciate it doesn't always go down well with women. If you approach a man as a woman, it's less of a risk, worst case they'll quickly mention they have a partner.

As for men, I think at 35-45, the single ones will be out of their first big serious 10-year relationship and finding their feet. I talk to men a lot as friends (work in a very male industry) and they say that like women, they are finding their true selves, deep diving into hobbies, spending time with their friends etc. So they seem like they'd only want a partner that they are very aligned with, as opposed to just a warm body, they have many more standards and preferences than younger men. They don't want the conflicts of their previous relationships back in their life again. I can hear a lot of overthinking in these conversations.

So I do believe they are a bit tentative about dating, especially if they are on OLD. Initially it can be exciting to meet someone and chat, but because they've been on a few rodeos, every bigger step like meeting up, romance, sex, commitment seems like hard work, and they have a lot of self-doubt and body insecurities as well.

It's easier being alone.

So that's why I feel at that age of dating women probably do have to be less passive than with someone who us 18-30 and would do anything to, erm, get with a woman and think about compatibility later.

Also this is quite interesting and from what I know, quite true: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/19-reasons-why-older-men-often-choose-to-be-alone/ss-BB1nxl7K?ocid=tw#:~:text=Some%20older%20men%20prefer%20to,not%20worry%20about%20anyone%20else.

I am sadly not Italian and left Europe for the US as a teenager and have lived here too long (25+ years) to have any meaningful connection to Europe but I do have some European friends - Germany, France and Scandinavia in particular and I think they were a bit surprised by the dating culture in the UK, particularly around how people use OLD. I have seen them being far chattier with strangers/men than anyone else I know and I absolutely love that attitude but they have not met anyone for a long term relationship either in their 40s.
It is possible that the general forwardness I experienced in the US caters to the traditional dating culture, and I suspect it depends where you are based - East vs West Coast vs Mid West. Lots of dating podcasts try to decipher what the best approach is but I don’t think any of them have because even plenty of US dating coaches advocating the traditional approach are still single in their 30s-40s!

As a tall woman (5’10”) I have primarily dated very tall men (6’4” and above) as I love wearing heels and have never had any issues other than the fact they were juggling too many other women. The 6’5” man in finance stereotype extends to tall desirable single men in other professions - I have dated men in academia, in marketing and in more creative industries in addition to banking and law. The one defining feature was there were so many single women throwing themselves at them they didn’t not want to settle for one - they were juggling at least a few and with a lot more following them on Instagram. I guess I attract a certain type of player without knowing it!

I wish that wasn’t taken to mean women aren’t interested in being social. I tried to make small talk with someone who I happened to be in a lift with in my gym this morning- we were in a slightly awkward state as I had pressed the wrong button to go up rather than down- and he stared at his shoes and completely ignored me. Fair enough but I don’t think this would have killed him even if there was no romantic interest.
I would actually say I know plenty of single women all the work (all over 35) but the men just aren’t interested in relationships - whether with them or anyone at all I can’t tell!

@occhiazzurri I wish that wasn’t taken to mean women aren’t interested in being social. I tried to make small talk with someone who I happened to be in a lift with in my gym this morning- we were in a slightly awkward state as I had pressed the wrong button to go up rather than down- and he stared at his shoes and completely ignored me. Fair enough but I don’t think this would have killed him even if there was no romantic interest.

Generally it isn't taken to mean women aren't interested in being social, and although the majority of men understand that it's not acceptable to do weird "pick-up artist" stuff like trying to initiate conversations with random women in a city centre, at a gym, at a train station, or who have their headphones in, those same men understand that it's completely fine to talk to a woman who initiated the conversation.

In this case, the gym guy may have been having a very bad day (happens to everyone) or he may not be sociable or talkative by nature (which is OK). I would have thought that most single men would at least reciprocate small talk.

I don’t think it’s about being single or not, completely ignoring someone talking to you is rude and surely almost nobody would do that? Although I can think of scenarios like perhaps the guy didn’t speak English, was deaf or similar.

Would you class as talking to a woman in a public space inappropriate? I’ve been spoken to by at least 3 men this morning alone, they weren’t hitting on me, and they were just fun small talky/ jokey interactions, and it was great. Last weekend a man approached me in a bookstore, told me I looked stunning, and pretty much just walked away to carry on with his day.

I really don’t want us to become a society where it’s not ok for men to have a laugh and a joke with a woman and you can only talk to your own gender. Is that where we are headed/ are we already there?

@ElleintheWoods I don’t think it’s about being single or not, completely ignoring someone talking to you is rude and surely almost nobody would do that? Although I can think of scenarios like perhaps the guy didn’t speak English, was deaf or similar.

We are all people in different situations and we have to be mindful of that. The gym guy may have been rude by not speaking, but it's also possible that he received the most horrendous news that morning and is completely zoned out as a consequence of that.

Would you class as talking to a woman in a public space inappropriate?

Yes. Women have been overwhelmingly clear about this, and I choose to listen.

I’ve been spoken to by at least 3 men this morning alone, they weren’t hitting on me, and they were just fun small talky/ jokey interactions, and it was great. Last weekend a man approached me in a bookstore, told me I looked stunning, and pretty much just walked away to carry on with his day.

Other people would react to this situation by saying they were unhappy that they were disturbed, or they feel unsafe when men make comments about their appearance.

I really don’t want us to become a society where it’s not ok for men to have a laugh and a joke with a woman and you can only talk to your own gender.

Like I said, we're usually fine to talk to women who want to talk to us and have initiated conversations with us. Starting random conversations with complete strangers is "pick up artist" nonsense.

Point taken. It’s a social minefield and I increasingly hear men are uncomfortable talking to women unless they have to.

I was raised pretty gender blind, for example most of my best friends from a young age have almost always been boys. However I have realised that I probably confuse some men just approaching them and starting a conversation, some certainly think I have another agenda. That’s one of the big cultural differences between the UK and Scandinavia IMO, but I feel like Scandinavia is also changing to become more about single-sex social groups.

Ok… So would you talk to a man in a public space? Or just speaking to strangers in general is not ok anymore?

@ElleintheWoods However I have realised that I probably confuse some men just approaching them and starting a conversation, some certainly think I have another agenda.

Actually, this is a fair point. I know some men have joked that if a woman approached them and started talking and expressed a romantic interest, they would probably be glancing around for a camera, or would be browsing YouTube later to see the video.

Ok… So would you talk to a man in a public space? Or just speaking to strangers in general is not ok anymore?

I am fairly quiet and I wouldn't really talk to men either. But this thread is about men and women meeting each other for the purposes of the relationship. Obviously, if I was looking for a relationship, then I would not be speaking to men for this reason.

@shuggles I think people just talk to each other less these days, everyone is buried into their phones. However I do think that in Britain there’s also a lot of gender based segregation (like single sex schools, social/ sports club segregated by gender etc). Add the current political climate and we’re approaching an era where talking to the opposite sex becomes something noteworthy. Unless it’s online on a dating app!

My socially talking to men, eg noticing a male colleague have breakfast alone and sitting down for a chat, has certainly been commented upon in the past. In Britain people seem to see romantic/ sexual intent everywhere, whereas I’m just being friendly, with a few exceptions of course.

Mostly my talking to men without any inhibitions has turned out fine, but a couple of funny examples. Approaching a man at an industry event introducing myself and asking to swap contact details to discuss a particular issue. ‘No thanks I’m married!’ Flashes ring and pretty much runs away 😂 Another older male similarly thought I was hitting on him when I was just being friendly and started talking, in a sexually charged tone of voice, how I’m just his type and how he finds assertive women so attractive 😂

I do wonder if as a youngish well-groomed woman you’re expected to sit around and wait for men to talk to you instead. Sorry but I’ve just got no patience for that, it’s a hard cultural norm for me to adapt to.

My experience with men IRL this week has been disheartening. Not only yesterday’s story but I went to watch the England vs Argentina polo game for the Coronation Cup at Windsor with two single girlfriends. There were two gentlemen literally standing next to their car half a meter from us who were completely focused on their drinks and watching the game, and despite pretty overt signs we were interested in chatting/some form of communication, they simply packed up and drove off after the game was over. We were stunned! We now have to go back in a few weekends to investigate whether even male dominated sports aren’t a place to strike up a conversation with British males. The Argentinian polo players rode very close to the fence on their way back from the winning score so we are now hoping we get noticed by the players at least!

Oh trust me sport events are definitely not the place! This is a classic ‘boys’ night’, no ditching your mates to chat to a woman (I mean, maybe polo is different to other sports, but I’d be surprised if that’s different)

Unless you’re in corporate with a nice drink, those people go there to socialise and meet people.

Would you have just considered walking up to the men and starting a conversation?

This was a very high profile event - England vs Argentina - so we thought these might be players or people who were really into the polo and we were shocked to see them just drive off after the cup had finished. We are going back in two weeks for another cup and are definitely going early and staying the whole day to strike up some conversations so I shall report what our experiment shows!

I'm over that 6ft2 tho under 6ft 5 & I'd say as a man height is great, I love being tall, women in general in my experience do like height.

What scandic are you? I've been to them all (ok not Finland) & I've been in places in Norway where I've been one of the shorter guys in a room, Sweden occasionally too, especially at my mates workplace, but he's in a rescue job & the guys in the main are ex military & huge, not often I feel a short bloke at 6ft3, bit I do if I see him at work lolz

I have a friend whos wife is my height, she is Dutch tho.

Odd story from years ago, I'm at a party, lady says to me, you are tall I'd say you are 6ft 6, no I say I'm 6ft3, nearly 6ft 4 but not quite, 6ft6 is really tall, no she says I'll bet you are 6ft6, my boyfriend is over there he's 6ft6 stand beside him, bit odd but anyway we are introduced & we are the same height, ah so he's 6ft6 so you definitely are....

So I just said oh OK then, but I knew exactly how tall I was as I'd been measured for a bicycle fitment, it was just so odd, he was 6ft3 like me, did she get off on telling people she had a 6ft6 muscled black boyfriend or had he been winding her up or what? was just so bizarre.

Sure, I keep hearing that tall often features in the top 3 things that women want in a man, and a lot of ‘tall’ chat in general. So I guess as a man it makes your life easier.

I’m Danish and yes, everyone in my family is crazy tall, on the women’s side I’m the shortest.

Personally for me, it’s not a conscious preference per se, but I’ve almost always had crushes on men about my height, every significant relationship has been with someone under 5ft 10. I’m not sure why that is, maybe it’s even things like eye contact when your eyes first meet - a lot easier for that to happen when they are at your eye level. And kissing logistics! Maybe it’s also that I spent my formative years exclusively around really tall men and want something different as a result?

Latest bf was about your height and… he would somehow always work his height into conversation! I find height is mentioned a lot with tall guys! ‘I’m 6ft x so I was the only one that could reach y’’ ‘I also have really big feet’ ‘did I mention I was really tall?’

So I’m not surprised at that lady wanting to show off her tall bf, it seems to be a thing. Maybe she genuinely thought he was x height if she was shorter herself? But what an odd thing to do!

One of my husband’s friends says he is 6 feet tall. He is shorter, but wants to be taller. My sister also claims to be six feet tall. She is taller, but wants to be shorter.

My husband is taller than them both. His height does come up in conversation with others quite often, but isn’t him that mentions it. He also has correspondingly big feet. Another thing people like to tease him about.

Oh that’s quite funny! Are we talking 1-2 inch difference or more?

I do agree with you that people are so obsessed with men’s height. One of my ex clients that does stage work is 6ft 2 with broad shoulders and somehow every journalist seems to work it into an interview question!

Asking a man who is about 5ft 8 how tall they are, just out of interest, is almost as loaded a question as asking a woman their bra size! I’ve had men on dating apps ask if I’ve seen their height and if that’s ok with me?! Seems to be a lot of pressure on men to be tall - one of the characteristics one really has no control over!

Suppose people always want to have what they’ve not been given, eg skinny women want curves, curvy women want to be skinny. IMO embracing who you really are makes you attractive, but that tends to come later in life for many.

To me as a tall-ish woman, it seems many men want to date short, petite women. Tall Scandi women used to be on trend in the 90s and 2000s, whereas now the trend is more towards short curvy brunettes from what I can see in the media. However personally I’m not disheartened by it as every man will have their own personal preferences, a bit like how I might go against the trend and prefer someone below average height, no six-pack.

@missshilling out of interest was your husband’s height a big part of what attracted you to him?

Last weekend a man approached me in a bookstore, told me I looked stunning, and pretty much just walked away to carry on with his day.

I agree with @shuggles that this would not be welcomed by most women. I would find it creepy, not flattering.

It’s also a bit weird- where in earth do you, as the woman, go from that conversational opener?

I think that a huge problem with the whole idea of approaching strangers is that the initial attraction is based on looks alone. That seems really shallow to me, and must rule out a lot of lovely people who don’t stand out physically. Anyone I have been attracted to has been someone I have got talking to for a reason, then realised later that there is a physical attraction. I definitely don’t have a physical type but I do have a personality type.

Maybe the guys were married? Lots of women in here would love a husband who is oblivious to other women. Well done them if they were attached.

Well, you and your friends are single, but maybe the guys weren’t?

Of course, that’s very much possible and that they just didn’t bring their other halves although that is somewhat surprising, as polo seems to be the sort of sport you’d go with a group, including your other half/family etc rather than just with your male friends (as you would for football etc).
if they were married then they didn’t wear their rings and their cars didn’t suggest any kids, judging by the size/brands etc.