If you are a ‘professionally accomplished’ woman, how do you meet men?

[ElleintheWoods]

Just to pre-empt, I don’t think ‘success’ (titles, possessions and other things society sees as such) matters and everyone is the same. However, more and more, men and people in my life seem to highlight that it still does matter in today’s society.

In my 20s I was a top 10 university graduate working in corporate London with HNWIs, so I used to think everyone was like that and that was normal life (young and naïve, sorry!). I’ve had 2 significant long-term relationships (5+ years) and a few shorter but still serious and enjoyable ones. Never really had bad experiences with men.

I then took a step back and moved to the countryside. I’m quite a friendly and bubbly person. However, I’ve found that men see me as a bit of an alien once they get to know my background. I play my background down a lot now that I’ve found it can alienate people, but obviously things do come out once you get to know someone/ people have Google. I was in a long-term relationship with a mechanic and he would make ‘how the other half live’ comments as a joke regularly. He was also ashamed of his house and family initially. I’ve also had the ‘why would someone like you want to be with someone like me’ comment from more than one guy. Frustratedly, I asked a male friend why guys like him don’t pursue me even though they seem interested and he said ‘I’d feel like I’m punching a bit/ long-term I’d feel lesser than you’.

So it seems that although I was open to dating anyone, it doesn’t seem many men are open to dating a woman who is more professionally accomplished than them. I’m also from Denmark where ‘class/ background’ generally is a lot less at the forefront of people’s minds and it’s common for women to be dominant.

Then I met someone who seemed perfect. Committed to the mission of using his skills to improve people’s lives, had worked abroad like me, on the board of a household name company, very varied interests, deep thinker, similar childhood experiences. We had what I’d regard as the perfect relationship – theatre, shows, weekends away attending cultural events and exploring new places, good food, talking about ideas, philosophy, politics... I could be fully myself around him and share the same values. My favourite moment in our relationship was a few weeks in when he had a huge presentation at work and he called me afterwards and talked about it for an hour – it may sound boring but I knew then this was someone I could relate to. It also made me feel close to him that I was the one he wanted to share his accomplishment with.

Ultimately it did not work out but it got me thinking... I felt much more ‘at home’ with someone like that than where I had tried to force a relationship with someone very different and had to lock away parts of myself to fit in with their family and friends. So maybe it’s just easier for me to try dating men who aren’t ashamed to be ambitious and want to make a difference in society, and who like arts, classical music etc

So 2 questions to the thread:
1. If you are ‘professionally successful’, how do you feel that affects your personal life?
2. Where have you met men that pique your interest/ you’ve settled down with?

Well I must say that I am shocked that you have been on the end of such personal and persistent follow-up questioning from people you have met in a professional environment.

I’ve been attending industry events in my field for decades and have never had that happen, including at least 15 years during which my answer to the question “do you have kids?” was “no” (the last 5 of this was while I was going through IVF so it was potentially sensitive but I didn’t mind).

Asking about kids- polite, benign chit chat with a new acquaintance. Asking if someone wants kids, absolutely not acceptable! (Also I’d put asking outright if someone has a partner in the professionally unacceptable box).

Could it be that by answering something oddly ambiguous like “Not really”, they think you are inviting further questions?

I know this may sound a bit shocking but I was raised, by my own family!, to think family wasn’t that important. My extended family are a clan of high achievers and we are just more detached from each other. As I say in my OP, I live abroad by choice and many cousins etc do the same. At school there were a number of kids who had a similar attitude so it wasn’t particularly unusual. I moved abroad to attend boarding school after primary.

As an older teen/ adult I met more people who would say things like ‘family is the most important thing in my life’. At the time I honestly, as weird as it sounds, thought it was an unusual thing to say/ think as most people I knew weren’t particularly close to their family. I have obviously realised that in fact, this is the dominant way to think and many families are very close.

However, there are also plenty of people out there that aren’t that close to their families, and I think they get me more. All of my serious boyfriends have had their parents live in another country and I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think someone who sees their parents every Sunday would find me cold and aloof.

I think it’s taboo in society to not be close to your family and so people don’t admit it openly, but there are plenty of people like me out there. Especially where parents have died young/ have been killed/ NC for some reason. ‘Family’ isn’t a happy concept for a fair amount of people/ not a big part of their life.

@littleapplecottage so what was the reasonable answer you learned? But from what you’re saying sounds like you found it a bit awkward at first?

The divorced/ single is such a sizeable part of the population that there really shouldn’t be any stigma. I feel like we build the stigma ourselves as being coupled up is the promoted ideal.

Yes but the question “do you have a family?” means “do you have kids?”. They aren’t asking about your parents/siblings/cousins.

Is that why you answer “not really”, because you are thinking of your parents/siblings etc but are not close to them?

Maybe a simple misunderstanding based on colloquial language perhaps?

As for being close or not to one’s family, you actually asked me earlier and I haven’t yet replied, why I felt I had little in common with my schoolmates who had stayed in the town where they grew up. One of the big differentiators is that they will often say things like “oh I couldn’t move so far away from my family”. I can’t identify with that at all, find it pretty lame really. My parents (now dead) were great but we all worked on the understanding that I and my brother would leave for University and aspire to travel and work internationally(that was not an option for my parents due to socioeconomic factors). I also always felt sorry for my university friends who grew up in London so didn’t have the excuse of a job to get away from their parents!

Again, I don’t think that not being close to your family is that unusual amongst educated and ambitious people. Interestingly it is more common now to stay a bit closer to family after you leave home due to zoom/family whatsapp groups etc. In my day you left and called once a month!

Yes, that’s what I mean, I know it means if you have a partner/ kids. I wouldn’t start talking about my mum 😊

So answering ‘no’ and ‘no’ just seems a bit of a conversation killer to me, because the other person doesn’t have a good follow-up.

I’d probably say ‘no, how about you?’ I know it sounds a bit daft but I don’t think anyone asks this question expecting to hear ‘no’. Most of the time the askers are parents with multiple children that just want to bond over the most important part of their free time.

Having said that, recently I’ve been asked this by women who have also turned out to be single, and it’s turned out into a fab conversation about hobbies and the merits of being single.

Thank you for the second part of your post and making me feel a bit more normal! I do agree with your observations, people’s priorities differ.

‘oh I couldn’t move so far away from my family’

I’ve tried to live with my family for short periods of time as an adult and it was stressful! I like my independence but I don’t like living alone, so friends or a partner is ideal.

I think amongst families where working internationally and studying abroad is the norm, the attitudes are perhaps a bit different, like how you’re describing yours. In my family there are even married couples that live in different countries for long periods of time.

I read posts on here where in-laws/ parents/ siblings/ cousins are heavily involved in the couple’s life and it fascinates me but I can’t relate. I used to really enjoy my ex MIL’s company and thought we were quite similar but she lived on another continent and her visit was a special occasion where she’d be treated to the best that the UK had to offer. Away from that we would text on special holidays or to share a nice photo but nothing more involved. Same with ex and my parents. For our families that was normal and worked for everyone.

Trying to look through the interests you have set out and relating it to the British context - realistically you are looking at finding a partner in London. Alternatively, you are looking at a commuter village and newly divorced dads. In the UK - people with highly pressurised jobs only move out of London once they start families. My assumption as a 40s something professional female in London - is that those dads i.e. men in their 40s who have moved out of London will go back to looking for partners in London if they are ever single again. So you are unlikely to find the men you are looking for where you currently live. Unless of course you are in Oxford or Cambridge.

I would however caution against linking cultural interests with financial success. As an academic - who has studied and worked in most of the top global institutions and lived in many of the global cities mentioned above - my assumption has always been that those working in the city are the least intellectual, least cultured people I have ever met. Give me an architect, academic, doctor over an accountant or a banker. In fact, I would say that striving to achieve financial success above all else demonstrates precisely an unexamined life that would surely be at odds with anyone who is even vaguely intellectual. But thats me.....

In my case - most of my partners have been academics or environmentalists - precisely because I was interested in men who had actual intellectual pursuits rather than being simply motivated by money. Pursuing money is frankly dull as dishwater. However, none of them were type A personalities. Many type A personalities would not accept a women who has an equal career to theirs. Most of them have also put their career ambitions behind mine at various times in our life. I did the same for them.

Haha I don’t actually answer ‘not really’ although I have said so once or twice 😂 It was probably the case more so when I had recently split from ex and didn’t know what to say.

What do you think about ‘no I don’t, do you?’

For context, I work in a very global company, so you have older people from cultures like India, Italy, Argentina, and I work with people at all levels. The cultural norms can be quite different! I feel like especially in India being unmarried at 35 is quite the curiosity and I don’t think the line of questioning was malicious.

I don’t wear any rings and don’t say anything to imply I’m in a relationship. To be honest though when I was in a relationship I didn’t really talk about it at work either. I notice that at this level, you have some people that talk about their private life very openly and others that are very private. I’m in the ‘very private’ camp for sure either way.

The fertility journey must have been tough. I’m glad you were able to separate what you were experiencing from those conversations. You sound like someone who is a bit more of an open book and at ease with others knowing your story?

Yes I do think that you are right in terms of the bulk of these kinds of men being in London. However, what about Edinburgh, Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol? They aren't complete cultural deserts... Maybe less of these kinds of people but still a contingent?

Having said that, talking to other women in my position, they have formed the view of 'I don't date around here' and actually go to London for dates! I used to find it a snobbish attitude but to some degree I see they may have a point.

Sounds like we have a similar taste in men 😎I'm not going after money at all, I'd loe to date someone who is an academic or similar. I do however think partners should be at a similar level of income to be able to have a joint life. For example, if I would like to go for a fine dining experience but my partner can't afford it, someone has to compromise. Or if I value high quality clothes but my partner has to shop at Primark, again, there will be resentment. I've had this experience both ways, and it's been a major challenge in those relationships.

They don't need to be wealthy, and as far as I know most academics earn in the 30-100k range, but for example dating someone on minimum age would be challenging practically. Obviously if my estbalished partner becomes unemployed or is on minimum wage/ falls into financial difficulty, that's a completely different story.

I do however thing the view of people in finance is unfair. From personal experience, there are many varied people with interesting backgrounds working in finance/ accountancy, and it's an area that can enable one to learn a lot about the world. I had a similar view to you and my mind was changed very quickly.

There's a Minnie Driver quote (not sure how true) that she wishes sometimes she'd just partnered up with a plumber.

I joke it would be ideal for me to date someone unemployed, so that they can be flexible around when I am available 😂However it's not real, it's just a fantasy, as a) I have much more free time now and b) I feel that actually we'd be too misaligned in terms of outlook on life and schedules.

Do you mean moving abroad to retire, or do so in the next few years? What attracts you to do that? (I've lived abroad but now feel a bit too settled to move again)

Sorry, I was just thinking about what you said earlier, and realised I forgot to reply. Are you in quite a male dominated industry then?

I need to know someone and have built a rapport, and understand them to jump into bed with them, it enhances the enjoyment I like to think. Hence still wanting monogamous relationship and not a one night stand!

Same. It can be a bit taboo as well but I do miss the physical aspects of a relationship. It's fine to be picky and look to settle with someone aligned to you, but in the meantime you can't lock yourself away in a tower, or can you?

I've been propositioned in that kind of way a couple of times but find the attitude of some of such men a little... entitled. OR it's the case that they actually have feelings for you and look at that as a way in.

Do you think there needs to be a barrier to ensure a relationship can ever really be FWB? E.g. living in different countries, or one of the people unable to be in a relationship for specific reasons, such as being a busy single parent or travelling a lot?

No, I did not share my fertility issues when asked if I had kids. Just a plain “No, I don’t” then steered the conversation on.
I think “No, do you?” is fine and polite; the person will probably just give basic details before hopefully realising that the topic is not a good one and moving to a different subject. There is nothing more boring as a childless person than hearing about other people’s kids. It’s pretty boring even when you have your own!

Are you in quite a male dominated industry then?

Yes very! There are women in it, and it is better in some areas than others, but I'm also an engineer, so couple that with the main industry and it's definitely not one for meeting educated single women, especially once you're a divocee at 40!

It's fine to be picky and look to settle with someone aligned to you, but in the meantime you can't lock yourself away in a tower, or can you?

Well you definitely can, and I suspect many do, but I personally wouldn't want to. I think there is a point on the picky vs let's just get some graph where the lines will intersect! I am perhaps not the best man to talk to here though, because I tend to err in the side of caution, to a fault.....I'll always be the gentleman, but I've learnt that that isn't always what people want - I just don't know how not to be!

Do you think there needs to be a barrier to ensure a relationship can ever really be FWB?

Good question! I have no idea. @Bluebird101 said that her relationship started as a FWB, so I suppose that there is definitely room for negotiation and movement.
I think all relationships change over time, and provided you both move in the same direction that's not a problem. But if it's the opposite direction, that's likely to be the end of any relationship.

I've never been in an FWB relationship, and like you, wonder if there needs to be a barrier. I suspect that it's all about communication, and making sure you both want the same thing, and that neither is compromising something they shouldn't be. (ie one person is head over heals in love with the other, but is taking what they can get or vice versa)

I also think it's important that it is what you agree it to be. For example, if one partner is just enjoying it while looking for a full time LTR, than if both know that and are OK with that then fine. If not, then it's using someone.

I think FWB sometimes get conflated with ENM type relationships, which I don't really understand, so wouldn't want to pass any comment on! I'm certainly not judging, everyone is a consenting adult here!

I've also just realised you mean a real barrier, such as time pressures or distance.
I think they might also be a reason for such a relationship, but then wouldn't that just be a kind distance relationship? Or a relationship where both are still quite independent?

What are the lines between a more distant relationship and an FWB relationship?!

What are the lines between a more distant relationship and an FWB relationship?!

I've been with guys where we only met for sex.

I've been with other guys where we were friends and did things like sometimes go out to dinner or to something we both liked doing and also sometimes slept together, because we were both single and sometimes you want some skin on skin contact. But we wouldn't work as an actual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. That's an FWB.

@ElleintheWoods , in my case I'm a successful guy, 37, corporate career in consulting but now moved into industry with a huge broadcaster/telco. We go into the office 2 days a week, but still, meeting the kind of intelligent, super successful woman I'd love to, has been problematic. I've a visual disability, so that will play a part in my struggles. Just signed up to classic FM dating though, so lets see how that goes.

Oh classic FM dating! It’s my station so it’s crossed my mind. However the one time I did have a quick browse it initially looked like many people were a lot older or quite far away. Didn’t get as far as creating a profile!

You’ll have to let us know how it goes. What else have you tried? What do you find the main difficulty to be, just not enough of the kind of women you’d like to meet?

I’m having a bit of a difficult day today, just struggling a bit to see where I fit in in terms of my ‘tribe’ after some new ‘feedback’. But also looking forward to some future events which should be more my cup of tea and fun.

Exactly, I've created a profile and posted It, but having the same reservations about the site, to be honest, I.E, significant age gaps and geography. I live in London, so who knows. I suppose you miss visual body language, the inherent cues of female interest, or I'm just a bit shy to try my luck, sometimes. You don't want to offend anyone by being overt. It is quite difficult. Work is out of the question for me, just want to focus on career and professional life, challenging enough to adapt to a new employer and slightly different role/colleagues. I go out, but again, you miss visual signs of potential interest. A snapshot of the dating profile...
Hi there ladies,
I'm X, your adventure guide for life's most thrilling experiences. Born and bred in the vibrant streets of Belfast, I've called London home for the past six years. Here, I've honed my talent for uncovering the city's hidden gems, and I can't wait to share them with you.
By day, I dive into the dynamic world of business analysis at a top broadcaster/telco, after 5 years in management consulting. But once the workday ends, I'm all about hitting the gym or escaping into the outdoors for a refreshing run or trip out.
My true passion? Good food and great company. I live to explore new restaurants and tantalising cuisines, and if you're a fellow foodie, we're already a perfect match. From impromptu food tours to spontaneous adventures, I'm always ready for the next thrill. I love the arts, culture, reading, keeping fit, and looking after myself. I'm a voracious reader, I've a MA in modern literary theory and a BA in English, distinction and 1st, from Cardiff and QUB respectively, before becoming paradigmatically corporate.
Sure, I love a cozy night in with a gripping book or an epic movie, but my heart beats faster for lively conversations, spontaneous plans, and exploring the world. If you have a wicked sense of humor, love trying new things, and are up for unforgettable escapades, let's make some magic happen.
About his ideal match
I'm looking for someone who's funny, loves to laugh, and isn't afraid of a little tactile affection. You don't take life too seriously and can find joy in the little moments. You're ambitious yet compassionate, with a zest for adventure and a heart full of humor. Honesty, communication, and a desire for a meaningful connection are what make you truly stand out.
Looking forward to our adventure together!
But again, I think CFM dating Isn't exactly perfect in terms of age/location.

@ElleintheWoods , hope you enjoy those "future events" and that they are indeed more of your cup of tea and fun!

@TheKookyJoker I am going to try to say this as kindly as I can as I am sure you are a lovely person, but your profile comes across as quite cheesy and clichéd. I was a single successful woman in the dating pool at your age and I’m afraid I’d have clicked right past that one as soon as I read “Hi Ladies”. It may as well have been written “Laydeez”. Does your profile have a tag stating that you are a man looking for women? If so, no need to say “Ladies” at the beginning. Just say hello or dive straight into the text.

Lose the “passion” and save any references to “zest” for talking about your love of cooking.

I’d also suggest you review carefully for American spellings like “humor” and “cozy” as they suggest that AI had a hand in the writing. “tantalising cuisines” sounds like you swallowed a thesaurus not a meal at an interesting new Ethiopian restaurant.

Reading that, I might well hire you as a copywriter for an advertorial or an Alan Partridge scriptwriter but I’m afraid that it leaves my pulse almost flatlining as a romantic proposition.

You actually sound much more genuine and attractive in the few lines you wrote to @ElleintheWoods in the previous post than you do in your profile.

@TimeandMotion , appreciate the critique. Very, very useful. i'll have another crack at It. I did use AI to give me a hand actually, wrote an outline and fed It to It, literally hate writing about myself. It is a bit rubbish, you're spot on... Definitely stilted.

The American spelling jumped out at me too, considering the nature of the MA and BA qualifications.

@TheKookyJoker I have to agree with @TimeandMotion that you come across much better when you're just being yourself. It reads like a pitch from an (American) management consultant.

Just write something like you were only posting on here. If it's knowing who will read it that's making you cringe and freeze or go overboard, then block that out of your head while you get it written. You almost need to write it as if you believe nobody will read it so you relax enough to sound natural.

If you use a chat bot to write for you, you have to tell it to use British English spelling in your prompt...

@TimeandMotion , I think this is more lively, genuine and a better representation of me.
Hello there,
I'm Darren, a 37 year old single guy living in London. Born and raised in the vibrant streets of Belfast, I've made London my home for the past six years. In this bustling city, I've mastered the art of discovering hidden gems and can't wait to share them with you.
By day, I'm immersed in the world of business analysis at a leading broadcaster/telco, following five years in management consulting. When the workday ends, you'll find me hitting the gym or escaping into the outdoors for a refreshing run and to clear my head.
My true passion? Enjoying good food, interesting conversation, great company, and loads of laughs. I'm always on the hunt for new restaurants and exciting places to eat in London, and they are copious! If you're a fellow foodie, we're already a perfect match. I'm always ready for the next exciting thrill or ramdom invite out.
I'm a culture enthusiast who enjoys the arts, classical music, though not exclusively, reading, and keeping fit. With an MA in modern literary theory and a BA in English (both with top honors), I'm an avid reader who enjoys cozy nights in with a gripping book or an epic movie. But, ultimately, my heart beats faster for lively conversations, spontaneous plans, and exploring the world.
If you have a fabulous sense of fun, love trying new things, and are up for unforgettable escapades, let's make some magic happen.

To be honest, you shouldn't use a chatbot to write a dating profile, I was taking a shortcut! Hard when you don't really value yourself though.