What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

So, are we going separatism, or just whine about men?
What’s the plan?

Interesting.

You know, I always feel horrible reading how women have such close, intimate, supportive friendships, because I’ve always stuggled with it.
I’m a woman btw.
But yeah, I don’t have support etc abd these stereotypings sure don’t help.

So, since I don’t have friendships same as apperently women have, same must go for men. That there are one’s who have fufilling friendships.

I've read the whole thread.

I'm a man.

I don't think any of the descriptions of men match the men in my social circles.

I guess we're all fairly high earning British professionals in London and things might be different for men from different cultures or social backgrounds.

With that said, I think that the earlier comment by @Hereyoume (page 2) had a lot of truth to it.

Why would men want to enter into relationships with such demanding partners?

@cwoffeee totally agree with you, men and women are radically different creatures, especially for dating (that’s why the relationship board is brimming with very kind, well-meaning, but totally counterproductive advice)

@SeriaMau beyond the flippancy, anything of substance to contribute?

The advice on the dating boards is bizarre and I'm not surprised some can either not find a date or are rebuffed.

What do you see as "demanding"?

A lot of the entitled demands I read on Mumsnet - i.e. relationships can only exist if a man meets their exacting (and often completely unrealistic) criteria, such as the recent thread by a stalker woman that was asking if she should reject a man because he'd liked a few non-sexualised photos of women on social media.

Honestly, who can be arsed with that?

Well, that example is actually not a hard thing to stop doing in the grand scheme of things though, is it?.

Unlike the thousands of women men won't get with because they happen to be overweight (when the men themselves often are too) or don't look a certain way. Men are far more fickle on looks because it affects their kudos among men (also why they dump for younger women so often). Women often end up with fat bald men and seem to be able to sacrifice looks far more readily.

They'd not even meet in person...

But why should a man tolerate a woman telling him that he can no longer interact with photos of his friends because a partner demands it?

I posted too soon.

I think your reaction is very telling.

"Well, that example is actually not a hard thing to stop doing in the grand scheme of things though, is it?."

You clearly see nothing wrong with a man having his social media activity controlled/policed. In fact, you appear to endorse it.

Would you take the same attitude if a man sought to control what you did online?

Why should a man put up with that kind of controlling nonsense? It's completely normalised on Mumsnet, but IMHO it is actually quite arrogant and abusive to assume you have the right to control a partner in this way.

Would that be the advice not to waste any more time and effort on weird, rude, selfish, lazy, dirty, overbearing, greedy or bad-tempered partners, Amy?

I don't think I saw that thread, @ThisOldThang, but have you never seen replies saying an OP's distress seems a bit much for the situation and asking for more background? I have, often; I've even written them myself.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5075446-will-i-throw-this-one-back-social-media-activity

"This man has given me no reason to believe he isn't who he says he s but I had a look on his socials.

They are chock full of sports, footie, current affairs reposts. Nothing sinister but there are, out of hundreds of likes, a couple of posts/ photos of curvy women. Nothing very revealing or sexual, just women with large breasts. Possibly three likes photos out of hundreds.
Is this a red flag ? Would you throw him back?"

The responses to that thread seem to be along the lines of telling the OP she is the red flag. So not sure what you are trying to say. If its your partner on socials busy liking pictures of other women, well thats just scuzzy. And you could be damn sure he wouldn't be down with you liking other mens pictures. So what exactly are these demanding behaviours that you seem to think stop men wanting relationships?

In my experience when I was dating most of the men I went out with wanted a relationship. However most of them were simply not relationship material for a variety of reasons, but generally, crazy ex's they seemed obsessed with, poor hygiene/self care, completely broke and expecting me to cover them, unpleasantly sexually deviant or just bad in bed, and a sense of entitlement in expressed various ways, to name a few. I did eventually meet someone who is none of those things, but I have had to have very solid boundaries. Patriarchy is everywhere, and once you see it you cant unsee it. But very few men ever see it, let alone acknowledge or understand their privilege.

But "wanted and desired". Objectively, women have probably wanted and desired me, but I literally can't imagine what it must feel like to feel desired. It must be wonderful, surely?

This absolutely stood out to me. To be in a relationship and not feel desired must be soul destroying. DH and I certainly have our moments but he knows he is wanted and desired even after 25 years. Surely this is the base on which eveything else is built ?

I thought the answer was obvious - porn is what went wrong with men.

I don’t thing controlling behaviour from women or men is endorsed on Mumsnet.

I responded to a similar thread that men (and women for that matter) are allowed to have eyes and look at whatever they wish.

However there should be mutually agreed respectful boundaries in any relationship, for example I wouldn’t have an issue with someone looking at other women’s social media and liking random pictures, however I would have an issue if it crossed a boundary into attempting flirty messages directly to each other to seek attention or boost each other’s egos.

in the particular thread you reference I don’t believe the OP was endorsed at all.

I'm sorry but I don't believe this. In my two long term relationships it was him that pressed for children not me. 1st one didn't convince me, second one did.

Yes, I am also not seeing endorsement.

The ex I talked about earlier actually got very angry at me for forwarding him a video of a man doing specific exercises for his back as he imagined I found the man attractive despite the fact he was wearing lycra and looked quite ridiculous and that he was complaining about his back at the time.

I don't think I was unreasonable for sending it and I do think he was extra sensitive for taking affront and sulking about it for a week, but he didn't think it wrong to be regularly liking shots of "friends" in bikini's, for example. Often on social media lines seem to get very blurred for men and I actually don't think it is wrong to agree it is a rising issue for many women. We have all had married exes sliding into our DM's professing we were the "best they ever had" and that they "can't stop thinking about you". It's a common booty call women recognise and worry their own partners do. Being cautious about it is that posters' choice, surely? Not an unreasonable "demand".

in the particular thread you reference I don’t believe the OP was endorsed at all.

No - she wasn't, @ThisOldThang @Bettedaviseyes111. There were one or two replies saying she sets her own boundaries and if that's one of hers, so be it (unusual as it is).

As it goes, she resolutely failed to answer whether the women are real-life acquaintances, mainstream celebs or "I wanna be your girlfriend" porn bait. Neither did she explain what she found unsettling about it, though she was asked. I'm not convinced it was genuine.

If it was - well, she's entitled to avoid him for her own reasons, whatever they may actually be! She's hardly typical, as the replies showed.

Men are a risk to women, they exploit us, attack us, kill us. That's why we put so much effort into figuring out what their true character is, we need to protect ourselves.
I'm not saying anyone has to accept being controlled by their partner, but you surely can't blame us for studying all the available data to try and ascertain the risk posed by men that we are involved with?

having his social media activity controlled/policed

OK, now I know you're bonkers 🤣 You go to a Twittex feed, you press Likes. You can hide your likes, I think; if you haven't, they're publicly available as a neat display. Reading them is not policing or controlling - it's expected behaviour!

I think society in general has made splitting up normal.

It used to be harder to sleep with someone, getting to first base took days not hours, People respected each other more. Now with tinder you can order a sexual partner from the menu and have them deliver themselves to the door. No romance, no cost to your pocket and they leave never to meet again.

It used to be harder to sleep with someone, getting to first base took days not hours

How long ago? I've certainly done all the bases in hours 😂

Never done online dating, though. I tried it a few times, it's just too much bloody hassle.

I have relatives that state what incredible Fathers and partners their sons and nephews are because they do the most basic things like take their child swimming or to an activity or cooks a meal. The bar for men is often set so low it really is.