What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

I don't think it's about becoming more like women, just about being responsible and less distracted by any shiny thing glinting somewhere else. It's the "squirrel" mentality of the Peter Pan who lives day to day without regard to anyone else as long as he gets his way. There is no progression with this as the norm.

Wars with families homeless and body parts all over the street don't seem to bother men at all. It's dehumanising to continue down this patriarchal road. Humanity isn't growing if this is what we do to keep men at the top happy and in power.

Yeah, that "more like women" thing's really insulting to truly decent, nice men who are responsible adults.

If anyone thinks it's impossible to be a pleasant grown-up while being a masculine male, they are definitely part of the problem!

I'll take a stab at this.

I'm a man, and I don't think we feel love in the same way women do.

Firstly, I don't think love itself is one emotion. It's a whole bundle of them, both negative and positive, rolled up into one. It's attraction, jealousy, affection, a need to provide, a need to feel cared for, companionship, happiness, grief, fear, and a whole load else besides.

And all these emotions in differing amounts make up love in all its forms. I.E. You love your friend for the companionship they provide, but you don't (usually) feel jealous when they have other friends. You love your Mum because they care for you, but (hopefully) attraction doesn't factor into that relationship at all!

And finally love with a partner is the most complete form of love. It's the one where you feel almost all of the range of emotions associated with it.

The problem is that men are emotionally stunted. We're discouraged from childhood from feeling a whole range of emotions. "Boys don't cry", "You're too old for a hug", "Don't be scared, you're my brave boy".

Periodically, someone will ask on Reddit "Whats a thing that women don't know about men", and pretty much every single time the most upvoted response is some variation on "The last time I was complimented was five years ago and I still think about it some times"

We're told from birth that we shouldn't feel things, so we push them down, and sooner or later we forget how to feel them. So for men, love is very much stripped back. We're allowed to feel attracted to someone, we can feel jealousy and possessive, we understand that we're meant to be the provider, the strong one, the brave one.

But happiness, companionship, wanting to feel cared for and appreciated, these are all muted for us. We're meant to be stoic, comfortable by ourselves, the idea of asking for a hug horrifies us!

And we can do fear, and grief, but we've been taught to hide them, so they tend to come out as anger, because we're cross with our selves for being sad, and weak.

In short, we're broken.

In some cases that means we don't love enough, or we're not scared enough of losing what we have. So we lie, we cheat, we do things that we know will upset our partners.

And in some cases the negative emotions involved in love overwhelm the positive ones, and men become posessive, controlling, abusive.

Things are changing I think. I'm 40ish, and work with a lot of people in their early 20s. They're a lot more open with their emotions, a lot less scared to say when they're unhappy, or worried. It'll be interesting to see how that translates into relationships in the future.

So to sum up: The Patriarchy! Fucking up life for men just as much as it does women.

Sociological jumbo-jumbo. I guess there were no bullies when men grew up in villages 100 years ago? Try reading about those times.

I’m not sure this is true. From speaking to male friends and colleagues it is quite clear they do talk to their male friends about problems and issues in their lives and support each other. These are men aged 40s to early 50s.

A woman who has transitioned to living as a man will struggle with making friendships as these women pass physically but are not men, and have not been socialized as men. This will likely be what is effecting her ability to form friendships with men, as a man. It would be easier for her to make friends with them as a woman, rather than as someone who looks male but isn’t and won’t understand all the unconscious nuances of males interactions with each other.

@Bobbotgegrinch The not getting compliments doesn't surprise me at all. I used to give my ex compliments all the time and could see him physically puff up and smile each time. He didn't see me as good enough to keep though and was having an emotional affair with a lady he still has waiting in the wings now, a relationship down after me. He admitted to me he knows she wouldn't ever go out with him, she is too ambitious for him (he was quite happy not travelling, reading or getting a more challenging role, didn't want kids, same dog walk daily etc).

He gets a new girlfriend that lasts about 1yr then has 18 months alone (he actually told me he waits 18 months every time, that is how ingrained this is) then starts again. Each time telling the woman "I just want to be loved!" as if that's different from everyone else, and then throwing it away as soon as it is built. He has cheated on some of us, stonewalled and shut out others for minor offences.

It's a long version of using a prostitute IMO and doesn't progress him further to what he says he wants out of life at all. This is of no benefit to society at all and makes him and the women he uses very unhappy, less trusting and more likely to dislike men in general.

I guess the difficulty with the picture you paint, which is every so slightly "poor men" is that they don't seem to want to change it, because it still largely benefits them. He won't contribute anything positive to society, but he has used up countless women's hopes and dreams, not had to spend or change much and largely knows what is coming next. He hasn't bought new life, contributed much through jobs, helped anyone else...

The problem is women thinking only men have changed.
One of the massive reasons men have changed is because women have too entirely. Women have lost their feminine and men in turn have lost their masculine as women don't allow them to be so without being called 'toxic', and 'controlling'.
The problem is with societies structure as a whole and feminism which has made women believe a career and social life is more important then building a family and staying in her soft feminine energy so that she can attract a strong providing man.

Knowing your husband shouldn't beat you and your children has fuck all to do with "losing femininity" thank you very much.
I'm a SAHM and have no doubt I am still very feminine. Men decide they want a different woman every few months and act on it, is what has changed. They don't see the benefit in stepping up to be a father because it makes their lives harder.

Most western women want to continue doing as they please, and the man should have no say otherwise he is deemed "toxic"!?

• don't expect a providing man who will offer you stability if you are not willing to respect and compromise on certain things which i don't expect any man to accept.

Also you have to understand and this is to ALL women. A relationship is not leave whenever it gets tough. Any successful relationship has ALOT of pushing through and ALOT of compromise, from both parties. Most of people now the moment they have any issues with their partner they are encouraged by everyone to 'leave', rather than genuinely sit down and work shit out.

There is so much shit wrong with western society and i say western because go to any other society and most women are happily married with a husband fully providing financially and the women living like a princess whilst people think she is "opressed" again, more fucked up western mentality!

@Mama2b99 bullshit. Women in other countries can't leave, that's the difference. Divorce figures being high means choice and freedom, not the other way around. A woman having no money, options or social support to leave doesn't make her happy in the slightest.

because go to any other society and most women are happily married with a husband fully providing financially and the women living like a princess whilst people think she is "opressed"

BS.

You have zero proof they are happily married.

You don't know what their lives are like or what they do if they had full rights & freedoms.

because go to any other society

I've been to other societies and the women were in polygynous relationships against their will and inclination. Some were using spell casters (!) to try to get rid of the other women.

Or they got left after having a kid or two, for a other woman and if they had kids with another man, it was only because the first man left them. The second etc man usually did it too. They just went from woman to woman and overlapped them if they could

One of the men told me smugly "WE RUN THE SHOW".

I've been to other societies and their daughters got driven around by female drivers so they never had contact with a man who wasn't a family member. They never left the country. Meanwhile the sons were travelling to wherever they fancied, studied abroad and did what they liked relationship wise and sex wise.

In central America there are massive issues with domestic violence and femicide.

In Polynesia.. massive issues with domestic violence and sexual abuse. A woman I know at school works there for the UN because of it.

Your fantasy societies don't exist.

Mama - you sound like an INCEL through and through.

Did you pick that name as a attempt to hide it.

But why not "poor men"?

And no, before anyone starts I'm not suggesting we should forgive abusive men for hitting their spouses, or for cheating on them. It's perfectly possible to be completely emotionally shut down, and still not go out of your way to fuck up. People who wilfully hurt their partners are scum, and I'm not for a second trying to excuse their behaviour.

But people like your ex. Do you think he's happy? He's obviously looking for something in these relationships and he's not finding it. If he was just looking for sex on tap then why would he blow them up a year in?

I had an ex contact me out of the blue a few months back. We had a little chat and I took the chance to apologise for the way I'd ended the relationship. She said that I didn't need to, and that she'd felt "safe, wanted and desired" in the relationship. That kind of floored me a bit.

I've been in a number of relationships, my current one for 17 years, and I've never "felt" any of those things. We'll leave aside "safe", because there's an obvious power imbalance between men and women and so that term probably means different things for each sex.

But "wanted and desired". Objectively, women have probably wanted and desired me, but I literally can't imagine what it must feel like to feel desired. It must be wonderful, surely?

I see thread after thread on here from women who are treated terribly by their partners, but who don't want to leave them because they love them too much. I completely fail to understand that. I love the absolute bones off my DP, I want to spend the rest of my life with her, I have never felt the way I feel about her with anyone else in my life. But if she cheated on me, or hit me, or called me a cunt, or belittled me, then I'd be out of the relationship so quick you'd see a Daffy Duck style hole in the front door.

I literally can't comprehend what it must be like to feel love so strongly that you'd be willing to put up with that. I don't think I want to, but there must be a middle ground surely.

That's why I think "poor men". Because a lot of us aren't capable of loving as much as we should, and also "poor women" for the ones who aren't being loved the way they should.

"That's why I think "poor men". Because a lot of us aren't capable of loving as much as we should, and also "poor women" for the ones who aren't being loved the way they should."

You see, as I mentioned in my final paragraph, I think men don't want to change it; or rather they do on one level and don't on another. They like having the power to pick and chose, to dump and not the pressure of responsibilities. They occasionally let themselves wonder about a deeper love, then carry on acting the way they and other men do. It isn't up to women to change this for them, in fact women simply can't because for the most part men don't respect women enough to listen. Men have to actively choose to love deeper, to find out more about their partner and read into them, like a book. If they only give surface level emotions, they can't be surprised when that's what they get back.

My ex loves his cycle, which is why he continues it. He got intense love, excitement, new ideas, new body. Then the familiar "oh she likes me more than I like her" then cheat/dump, then 18 months of wanking and telling everyone "woe is me, they all leave me for no reason!" then it starts again. He gets regular bouts of women telling him he is wonderful and trades them in when they bore him.

This makes sense to me, however the reason they were able to get sex on their terms is that they had all the power in the relationship- largely because they tended to be in control of the money.
We could say that a primary driver for women getting into relationships with men was to do with women not being able to earn as much as men. That is now changing, women can earn good salaries, we no longer need to partner up with men in order to get on in life.
And thanks to digital communication we can collaborate on a wider scale and collectively see through the ways in which they control us.

I partially agree with this however my DP runs a factory and really struggles with employment as the young lads he gets in either have no work ethic, a massive sense of entitlement or don't want to do the hard graft!

Hi all
i am recently single, 50 but young and bubbly for my age. My kids are all grown up now so it’s my time to start having some fun! I have my own house, car, money, don’t need any man to support me..but I can never seem to find a man to match my vibe/energy! I tend to look at slightly younger men for this reason as I don’t look my age I’m told and I think they’ll have more energy. I want someone to be silly with, to laugh with but also somebody who supports me, tells me I’m sexy (lack of sex in last relationship knocked my confidence) the last couple of dates I’ve had started well, but then I found they just didn’t have the energy I wanted from a partner. One hardly worked and lived with his mum and one was an alcoholic (I don’t really drink)
does anybody have these problems? So it just men of my age are no fun?! My friends all laugh that I go for younger but honestly these guys of around 50 just don’t seem fun and are always tired etc
the last one said he couldn’t meet me at the weekend as football it always on and that will always come first…great

I agree that there are terrible women. However, compared to women men (generally speaking) have a far greater capacity to do damage.
It's much harder for women to get into a position where everyone is scared of them and obeys them.

I think the simple truth about why there are men who are crap at relationships is because inequality suits them. It means they don’t have to do as much of the boring stuff: , housework, childcare, mental load thinking and planning. Nor do they have to place their own needs second.

If you are on the winning end of an inequality, what is your motivation to change it? There’s a reason why it’s women who do feminism, not men, despite the fact that it’s men who can solve all of the problems feminists raise. And that’s because men benefit from misogyny and they don’t benefit from equality.

There is an issue with a lack of good role models for men but that’s less to do with them not having Fathers ( though that creates other problems for children) and more to do with very few men actually modeling positive, truly equal relationships.

The internet is allowing women to come up with solutions, band together and grow in independence and with groups.

Men have used the internet to wank
🤭🤣

Yet men and women can access sex easier than ever before via apps. These cater for all types, kinks, dates etc. So a relationship as a practical exercise to obtain sex or a housewife becomes redundant. Women don't need men for financial reasons, so that's another key motivator gone.

The dynamics of relationships have changed women have more expectations now, and most men are not buying into these expectations. Despite protestations, men just don't feel or live in the same way or world as women.

Bullshit indeed!
(She sounds like a surrendered wife?)

Some of us women simply dont want to be mothers Im child free by choice and some people are threatened by that as your post proves. Your post also contradicts itself because a woman who doesnt have children has more time to spend on herself. e,g. while a parent is worrying about the best brand of nappy to buy, a non parent is choosing a new lippy or serum or shopping for new clothes. So more time to practice femininity.
If you want a mum to have more time to do this you have to get off your arse and do your share.

I think you have misunderstood what @Mama2b99 means by femininity, by femininity she means obeying and deferring to men.
Having your own money to spend on things that make you feel good is a way of indulging yourself and having control over your life, that's what she considers masculine, being in control, living life on your own terms, and facilitated by an obedient woman who subordinates herself to you.