What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

+1 on all comments about socialisation.

add into that that men are typically socialised to view others instrumentally/as objects rather than as others who are connected emotionally/relationally - as well as to hold their own independence sovereign.

men who have this world view can "beat" it but need to work hard and actively challenge it. as well as the damage it does to others, it rots men from the inside.

Because all the "good" ones are taken.

And also there are loads of really good men who are dismissed because we don't think they are good enough, because "we only deserve the best".

Also, (EVERY time I mention this on a thread I get grief) there's not much incentive for the tiny percentage of success men to get into a LTR.

Let's be brutally honest, most of us aren't self made millionaires, the successful guy invariably ends up providing the home, pays the bills, and loses at least half of his assets if there is a divorce. What does the average woman bring to the table in that very common scenario?

Kids?

She won't be a "housewife" because that's considered controlling and demeaning and in the above scenario she would I side on having cleaners, possibly even a aupair.

The biggest shift I think is the desire to have children. A lot of men these days just don't want to have any, so there's no point in marriage or a LTR. The idea of a loving relationship, having each others backs, well it's mostly nonsense isn't it.

We aren't very supportive TBH, and once kids come along, for the vast majority of women, their men are surplus to requirements, and they just need to shut up, pay the bills, stop asking for sex, and keep out of the way.

I think that "men" are having a disproportionately shit time ATM.

Load of threads on here about how none of them can be trusted, definitely NO males of any age can babysit, they're all predators don't you know!

All taxi drivers are rapists.

All police officers are rapists.

All fire fighters are cheating bastards.

The list goes on.

If they show any aggression at all, under virtually any circumstance, obviously they are abusers. But we also expect them to "be men" and protect us. Just as long as they are polite about it 🙄

They MUST have drive and ambition, they must work hard. But obviously not too hard because there will be hell to pay if they miss the school run.

This is slight tongue in cheek, but I just think that there are lots of good men out there, we just give them a really fucking hard time.

The dick men I have met recently tend to have mediocre lives. So they attempt to get "power" in a domestic setting.

But hey there are clearly some women who will give them housework and sex.

It's the initial excitement they crave - not the relationship.

In my more pessimistic moments (father of daughters here) I would substitute "the majority of" for "that many men" in your post.

I think mostly there’s a mismatch of values and / or effort.

Relationships need work and some people just approach them in a selfish and greedy manner instead of realising they are supposed to participate and value the other person.

Theres also the problem of it being all too easy to have disrespectful behaviours via social media etc, leading to overinflated egos.

This is a really complex question

As s PPS have said men have lost their place, as it were. Not that that was necessarily a good place to be, but they're unsure of their place in society.

What continues to surprise me is just how entitled/selfish men are. How they allow women to do stuff for them, rather than 'helping' out.

And don't get me time started on irresponsible fathers.

I think there's a lot in this.
I think many men - not all - need to do some physical work to burn off some testosterone, engage in being part of a team and feel a sense of purpose.
What if you're a man who is not in any way academically inclined? Where do you work these days? Manual jobs have all gone.

Well my husband cheated at least twice, a one night stand and then a fling with student, both times while pregnant. But found out years later when he met yet somebody else. Decided to keep it together as we were supposed to be a team. And he was one of what I thought was decent. He's got worse as he's got older. Grumpy and miserable and separate lives and rooms.

Is it people see partners as easy come easy go these days , I don't know ? I really don't know .

As someone who has been in a ltr with a man and a woman (successively, not concurrently), I feel like there is a competitive edge to m/f relationships that doesn't exist in the same way as f/f relationships. And I specifically mention f/f because I've observed a competitive edge to m/m relationships also. So I think it's probably a male thing.

If a woman isn't aware of this dynamic, she'll go into a relationship assuming the goal of equal partnership rather than competitive one-upmanship, and when she is made vulnerable in situations such as pregnancy, maternity leave, or sahp, she's seen as weak and has somehow "lost" the competition, so contempt creeps in.

Once a relationship has contempt in it, it's doomed really.

Oh @BiologicalKitty so true, and even made me well up a bit. I remember that contempt for my weakness well, the pain of my illusion of equality shattering.

All men really want is sex.

But they want and need the regular sex, company, plus one, domestic work, and childcare (and possibly care for themselves if necessary) ...which is why they stay in the relationships.

Also a lot of men can't afford to live comfortably alone. No man falls in love quicker than one who needs a place to live.

There's the thing called sports lol.

Manual jobs have all gone.

Farmers, brickies, joiners, gardeners, movers, bin-men, baggage handlers, I'm sure there are more ...

Sometimes women are the problem.

They never ever bring about the damage and destruction of others that men do.

So you can relax.

@BiologicalKitty - so very true.

It was when I was on maternity leave that the balance tipped. Then I went down to PT and it tipped further.

I don't know, I see what you mean but surely women have had to control their emotions, go to work when they have periods, suck up PND etc etc. Isn't it about time men learnt to deal with their hormones in a responsible way too?

I think this has always been the case.
I’ve said for a long time that the majority of men do not want children.
That if their long term partner said I’m not having children then they would go along with this.
As most women want children they just go along with that. What other option is there? To leave a comfortable lifestyle with sex on tap and a nice home. Most men won’t sacrifice that, so they go along with having a child because it doesn’t affect them that much.
In the past women tolerated awful behaviour. What choice did they have? They couldn’t even get a mortgage never mind expect to get promoted to earn a decent wage. There was a lot of stigma attached to being a single mother. Pregnant women almost had to get married. Just because someone stayed in a relationship does not mean it was a happy one.
I think if more women didn’t want children then more of them would stay single.

Mine left the previous girlfriend because she didn't want children and he did. He wanted to be a better dad than his own was. He said.

I’ve said for a long time that the majority of men do not want children.
That if their long term partner said I’m not having children then they would go along with this.

I don't agree it's the majority.

They want to pass on their genes/continue their line/leave something of themselves on the planet/conform to the standard set up etc.

Some see kids, esp. sons, as their mini me.

And that's just about wanting them before they have them. When they have them, (regardless of how much they wanted them or not (or would have actively chosen to have them or not)) - in my experience a large portion of men become devoted fathers. They have strong instincts to protect, teach etc their offspring too.

Yours would be a valid point without the 'lol'.

I also think some men have a huge drive to be dads (genetic material anyway)...to lots of kids by different women. I think of them as dandelions being blown about whatever which-way letting the wind take them and their seed. Sadly they tend to be the ones with no job and reliability as well. They're the ones out there touting themselves as "sperm donors" with NI only.

I could not help but express my amusement that someone would completely disregard one of the main activities - obsessions in fact (playing and watching) of the vast majority of men, in terms of "testosterone release" - so shoot me.