What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

@5128gap You only have to consider the behaviour of many of the posters who admit to being men on here, falling over themselves to defend some random OPs badly behaved husband.

I don't dispute that some people on here have badly behaved husbands, but quite clearly, this is a minority. If the majority of men were abusive, as some have claimed, then the overwhelming majority of women would not be in relationships with men, and the majority of women would not be sticking with abusive men when any woman can go onto Tinder and immediately get matched with a man within about 10 minutes of using the app.

Most men on dating apps are lucky to get so much as a match. It's the men with all the options that women want and these are the men less eager to commit because it's a sweet shop mentality.

Here are some of the reasons women stay with abusive men.
They don't realise it's wrong. Their dad was abusive so they think that's just what men are like. The man tells her it's her fault for driving him to it and she believes him. The man tells her sorry it won't happen again and she believes him. The man tells her he will take the children or get her removed from the UK and she believes him. The man tells her he will kill her or the children and she believes him. The man tells her he will kill himself and she believes him. The man is bigger and stronger than her and physically prevents her escaping. The man controls the money and withholds the means for her to escape. The man has convinced her she is ugly and worthless and is lucky to have him and..you guessed, she believes him.
I'm not guessing these things. Ive worked with abused women for 30 years, and have heard every one of these reasons more times than i can count.
I dont know how many men are abusers. The optimist in me hopes its not 'a majority', but we cant know for sure, because its so often a very private matter. What we do know is 1 in 4 women have disclosed they have experienced domestic abuse. So unless the same 'tiny minority' of men are moving through a lot of partners, its more than you think.

Your logic is faulty but let’s go back to the start.

i didn’t claim a majority of men were abusive. They may be - who knows.

YOU claimed that a tiny minority of men were abusive. I asked on what basis.

you cited: that women stay in relationship with them. This is erroneous and therefore does not support your argument.

you cited: that the husbands of women you went to school with do not seem horrible or abusive to you. But as you cannot know if they are abusive or not to their wives this is erroneous also.

step back from your fixation on how wrong we are, and apply your own rigid standards of evidence to yourself: what evidence do you provide that it is a tiny minority (.5%? 1%? what’s tiny?) of men that abuse women?
you can’t use your own experience as evidence, since that doesn’t count when it’s mine.

Exactly. We can’t know.

apart from @shuggles, apparently

where is the hypocrisy?

he was making statements about the characters of men. He then said he actually didn’t know men very well so I pointed out that that will limit his understanding. What I did not do was make a moral judgement on what he said - just that he didn’t have grounds to make an accurate assessment.

i never said it was commendable what the other poster said, but what I did say is that people like you who when insulted demand an apology are usually terribly pricks. Because you did NOT say - you have made some errors in your assumptions and therefore you are incorrect (like I did), you said THIS IS APALLING AND I DEMAND AN APOLOGY YES AN APOLOGY YOU WILL GROVEL FOR DARING TO INSULT ME AND MY LOVER

explain, please, the hypocrisy?

Its being a prick to demand an apology for an untrue insult?? You remind me of those teachers at school who dont see bullying but suddenly see the one being bullied standing up for themselves and punish accordingly.

Anyway ive made my point Got other things to do with my time

@queenmeadhbh I didn't say you said a majority of men are abusive. I said some have claimed that.

See @Garlicked 's post: "I'd like to think it's a (large) minority but, actually, I suspect it's at least half and possibly more."

Yep and that gets construed as the behaviour of 'men' when in reality it's a pretty small group of men.

You still didn’t answer the question.

and in any case, that other poster did not “claim”. She used the verb “suspect”, a stative verb that presupposes doubt.
i guess your precious facts aren’t so important all the time it seems.

anyway, since we’ve got this far: what proportion do you consider to be a tiny minority and where is your evidence for this claim?

Demanding an apology is the behaviour of an inflated ego, yes.

Yesterdays school bullys stick out like a sore thumb on here

I have never bullied but I have been bullied. I did not demand an apology. I don’t see what it’s got to do with bullying anyway.

An apology, to mean anything, has to be freely and voluntarily given by the wrongdoer. A demanded apology is empty.

I see what you mean. And we do have to bear in mind that we dont know whats going on in some peoples lives but we cant make allowances all the time.

I see what you mean. And we do have to bear in mind that we dont know whats going on in some peoples lives but we cant make allowances all the time.

@queenmeadhbh anyway, since we’ve got this far: what proportion do you consider to be a tiny minority and where is your evidence for this claim?

There is no numerical proportion I can put on this, which is why I have only used general wording.

It clearly has to be a tiny minority of men. The majority of women actively seek out relationships with men. Almost all women in relationships are completely committed to their husbands and wouldn't even entertain the thought of starting a relationship with a different man. All the married women I've seen appear to be very happy.

None of the above could ever be true if a large proportion of men were abusive. If that was the case, almost all women would choose not to have any romantic relationships with men.

Either that, or they would be intentionally avoiding abusive men by seeking placcid and passive men instead. As a placcid and passive man, I can confirm that women are not flocking to me!

All the married women I've seen appear to be very happy.

Appear - that doesn't mean they are. You don't have to spend long looking at threads here to know many women are not happy in their marriages, and some women do consider starting relationships with other men.

None of the above could ever be true if a large proportion of men were abusive. If that was the case, almost all women would choose not to have any romantic relationships with men.

But abusive men can be charming and charismatic, particularly in public and in new relationships. If they were always obviously abusive, then probably they wouldn't get into relationships. Plus for a whole host of reasons, some women are poor at spotting red flags, may have low self esteem, or already be trapped by children, finances, work, housing.

Two women a werk are murdered by partners - some of those men may be repeat offenders who weren't previously caught, but even if that's true, it would be logical to assume that many more women are being abused without being murdered - partly because there are stats, but also because people are unlikely to go from always nice to murder in one step - it's behaviour that escalates, and there will be a lot who are physically abusive but don't actually kill. Plus there will be a lot who are coercive controllers without being physically abusive.

And you won't see it most of the time. Women won't go out, or they'll wear make-up and clothing that conceals injuries. You won't get to talk to the women who will get a beating back home if they talk to other men. Nearly everyone is socially trained from childhood to say they're fine, their relationship is fine, except to closest friends and family, and some won't say things aren't good even then.

I once worked in an office and a Pakistani Muslim, that we worked with, had an arranged marriage with a Glaswegian woman. The guy was quite weird and there was quite a lot of sympathy, including from British Muslims, for the woman that we all assumed was a 'normal' British woman that had been forced into the marriage by her parents.

The girl became pregnant shortly after the marriage. A Somalian commented 'This is good news. He owns her now.' He wasn't joking...

Abusive attitudes and relationships are very common - but I don't think it is anywhere near a majority. Most will be very low level/borderline cases involving moods, sulking, nagging, general unhappiness, etc.

I doubt there are more than 5% involving serious abuse. I'm basing that upon the people I know. I think my wife would tell me if she thought any of her friends were in abusive relationships.

I only know of two relationships, amongst our friends, that have involved abuse. One involved an alcoholic wife that became physical during arguments. The other was a lesbian relationship where one woman was extremely controlling and jealous.

The girl became pregnant shortly after the marriage. A Somalian commented 'This is good news. He owns her now.' He wasn't joking...
This is likely a fairly normal impulse in men especially those who have received little education; he has planted in his seed and now the ground belongs to him. If she has also received little education and /or has few prospects in life she often has no option but to meeky defer to him.
These are the mechanisms by which men oppress women.

This is not evidence of your claim, merely
more presumption based on shaky logic and false assumptions.

As a man once said to me : Balls drained , bellies full, clean clothes , Sport on TV , no emotional pressure and I'm happy . .

So he spent all day jerking off, ordering takeaway & doing his laundry?

He's living the dream.

Indeed, on dating apps, I’m afraid women are complaining about the 10-20% of men, and those men have a LOT of options.