What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

Yuck.

Well if only 10-20% of men get any likes on dating apps they have to ask themselves why.
Maybe they need to up their game.
Of course women are going to be attracted to attractive men that goes without saying.

There's not much they can do about being under 6 foot though. And most men are under.

I think the point being made is the majority of women are only interested in a small group of men.

Perfectly reasonable 'average' men are being overlooked.

Where MN seems to go a bit awry shall we say is equating this group of men as all men, in the same way you have feminists on here talking about men NAMALTing etc

All men often = 'the men I'm actually attracted to' in MN speak.

Except they're not though are they? Maybe they're not the first choice on OLD (in much the same way as older, heavier, or less conventionally attractive women arent) but a quick look around in public shows that the vast majority of couples include a very average looking man.
I think the issue here is that some men seem to struggle to accept that their average appearance, mediocre job, middling salary and advancing age isn't going to attract the queue of gorgeous young women they have in mind. So instead of being realistic about what that says for their prospects, they get bitter and twisted about women preferring this mythical 20% of alpha males. Meanwhile most women typically just want a decent averagely attractive man who's not a lunatic.

That doesn't really make sense when we expect most men (or so we are led to believe) swipe right in OLD on almost anyone with a pulse, whilst I suspect women are generally far more picky.

You can try it yourself, create an account using photos of an average guy, perhaps 5'10", works a 9-5 job, and see how many matches you get. It really is eye opening seeing OLD from the other side.

There's a bit to unpick here but on the last part specifically the research for online dating (and if we use that because it's tangible) suggests that women are overwhelmingly going for the same men.

I'm not criticising women for going for men they are attracted to but it does suggest the whole alpha male / hypergamy idea isn't just something dreamed up by incels in a bedroom of their parents house at the age of 35.

This is lived experience of men not in this top 10/20% and I say that as someone who isn't in that group of men but has done reasonably well on the apps (but it's all releative and bloody hard work!).

I personally doubt men outside of the top bracket are seriously expecting someone in their 20s if they are say late 30s or older. But I obviously don't know and don't want to negate others experiences.

It just feels like men and women are throwing stones at each other when the only group 'winning'are this group of men

I think the problem largely lies in an over reliance on OLD, both for those who put all their hopes of a relationship in it, and those who see it as the only barometer of dating behaviour and relationship prospects. Most of us only need to consider the average men we know and see out and about with women to see that their mediocrity is not a bar to a relationship. Average men meet women through friends, work, hobbies, in pubs and bars all the time. In fact i personally know only one couple who met through OLD. It might take a bit more effort than going through a serise of photographs and picking out the most visually appealing women, but it may yield better results.

I'm not criticising women for going for men they are attracted to but it does suggest the whole alpha male / hypergamy idea isn't just something dreamed up by incels in a bedroom of their parents house at the age of 35
Re hypergamy, surely it's normal and expected that both men & women will try for the 'best' partner that they can get. After all that's what the redpill men try to do, they deride women for it because they would prefer it if women had no agency/no choice except to comply with whatever man claims them.
In truth I tend to only be attracted to men who are physically hyper masculine, muscular & athletic. But then I dont much like the dominant personality that goes along with it!

I think men have been sold a lie.
They see silly films where a very slim, attractive, articulate, caring woman is partnered with someone old enough to be her father. In fact the woman is as close in age to her (very attractive) son as she us to ‘the husband.’ Then they think this can happen to them.
Dame with porn. So very young, attractive woman paired with some god awful bloke.
It’s probably a shock when they go online.
I imagine the same thing happens to women though. Men the same age of similar attractiveness preferring more attractive women.
I’m just speculating here btw. I’m not on any dating apps so I don’t know what the situation is like.
Maybe everyone on there is fairly fickle.
I’ll say it again though, once a woman no longer wants children she can afford to be very picky.

Well said. Add that to the ego of the average man and well..

Reminds me of this!

I thought redpill was more the idea of no commitment. Like hookups only.

That is hypergamy isn't it really. Going for the alpha types. Each to their own but those guys have the options.

Yet the average man if he sets his profile to travel, let's say to Eastern Europe will match with women who are significantly more physically attractive than your average Brit.

Hypergamy is made up nonsense. It was made up in the 1800s by some guy wondering why Indian women wanted to marry a higher caste.

Confirmations bias or Illusory Correlation isn't scientific evidence.

We wouldn't use bloodletting and heroin laced aspin these days either.

There was an article in, I think, the FT in which they discussed a study of men and women's dating options.

Young men without careers felt they had the least options. Young women without careers felt they had the most.

As men progressed up the career path, they felt their dating options increased - with CEOs perceiving themselves to have the same dating options as young women.

Conversely, as women progressed up the career ladder, they felt their dating options became less - with CEOs having the least options.

The difference was due to no women wanting to get with the young careerless men vs the successful women not wanting to get with less successful men. That trend also had crossover with the successful men having more options, and less need for a financially stable woman, so the women were fishing in a tiny pond.

I once saw a YouTube video of somebody analysing a video of a woman complaining about the lack of 'decent men'. Her criteria for what she wanted meant there were probably only a handful of men on the planet that were a suitable match - e.g. she was 6 foot tall, but the man had to be taller than her in heels. She earned $250k and he had to earn more.

There's clear research showing it's not made up nonesense.

Where's the research showing to the contrary.

So, to summarise. Wealthy old men are happy to use their material advantage to attract disadvantaged young women who wouldn't look at them sideways if a virile young man could offer them the financial support they needed. About 1% according to marriage stats of young women agree to this. Leaving the other 99% of young women, who have relationships with similar aged men.
Meanwhile successful older women are not prepared to trade money for sex with disadvantaged young men, and have no interest in the type of successful older man who would trade his to exploit a young woman.
This leaves successful older women with a 'limited pool' of men they would consider, which roughly comprises of all the men who are not wealthy and successful and the wealthy and successful ones who don't exploit young women. Plus the young ones who want a wealthy and successful older woman.
Seems a fairly large pool to me. So I'm thinking the problem probably lies more in quality than quantity.

So a wealthy man who has made his way up the career ladder is prepared to date a woman without a job?
Hmmm I don’t really see this in real life and trust me, I come into contact with lots of the general public.
The article says ‘felt they had the most options.’
Again, I see young, jobless women getting pregnant and yes, there isn’t a shortage of men who are willing to get them pregnant. However in the vast majority of cases it is young, jobless men who they are with!
Sometimes the man is a bit older but trust me, he us no catch.
They young women who keep having children- yes life at the moment seems good to them. However their life choices are limited. This is tied to why they get pregnant without any prospects, just as the poster above started.
Do I see attractive men with great careers coming in with these jobless no prospects women? No.

@grinandslothit Sorry, hypergamy is made up nonsense?

So you think Bernie Ecclestone's wives married him for his really great personality or what?

What about Melania Trump, was she drawn to Donald's warmth and compassion?

Sorry I’ve only read the first OP and not full thread but I often wonder this. There are so many men out there who gas light, manipulate, lie and don’t treat their partners with respect and I think why? Surely it takes more energy to play mind games, and if you love someone why don’t you want to treat them in the best possible way? Even my friends and family who are in what you would call normal ish relationships, a lot of the men lie and/or expect the women to work yet still do 90% of childcare and housework. I genuinely don’t understand why men get into relationships to cheat, lie and make no effort. Why don’t they want to make their partners happy?