What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

@JenniferBooth Exactly an example of a brainwashed civillian😂

Femininity is now defined as buying skin care and lip scrubs, thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

If a potential partner told you that they'd been through your Twitter feed. They'd analysed your activity and weren't happy with what they found and expected you to modify your behaviour if you wanted to be in a relationship with them.

Would you consider that to be normal/acceptable?

Personally, that would be a massive red flag and i wouldn't want anything to do with that person.

That type of creepy controlling behaviour is completely normalised on Mumsnet.

And then posters ask where all the good men are!

Honestly, what normal man wants to be in a relationship with somebody that behaves like that?

Its way simpler to just indulge your own desires, moods, emotions and wishes without any regard for anyone else. The type of men you're talking about live life exactly as they please. The only effort they put in is kicking up fuss when their partners don't facilitate them.

For fuck's sake, @ThisOldThang, you're determined to bang that old drum 😂

Her BEHAVIOUR was checking out the public likes of someone she connected with. This is completely normal, expected behaviour. I do it all the time, and I'm not dating.

Her EMOTION was concern about two or three pictures she saw. It was NOT, in this case, normalised. Her feelings deserve respect, as everyone's do, but respondents shared that they wouldn't feel the same way as she did.

You're trying to make a non-existent case.

Nah they have kids so that when they get old there is someone to wipe their arse for them.

It was just an example that i can do what i like without worrying about babysitting and childcare. I could have used other examples.

Like .............go for a coffee with friends
Or spending two nights away with OM but that would have caused a bit ofa furore.

^^ agree with this, women are saying “we want x, y & z “ from a partner and some men are saying “no thanks, that’s not for me” ,

its not really like supermarkets, if you don’t like what tesco has you can go to Asda or Morrisons, but if you don’t live men are saying or doing you just go without and I’m totally sure the opposite is true

Which is what the OP was asking - is it not worth men just being a decent worthwhile person - you say men think no, evolution can stick it and I want no part in creating a future generation or having a relationship.

That's fine, as long as they don't take huge offence that no woman wants them and start killing, raping or abusing us, as they have been known to do when shunned.

That's not what happened though, is it? That woman had no intention of trying to tell the man what he should look at. She was simply deciding whether or not she wanted a man who liked those pictures, which she's fully entitled to do. In the end she decided not to consider him so there was no opportunity for him to 'tolerate' anything. There's a huge difference in trying to control what a man does and avoiding or dispensing with men who do things you don't like.

So true!

Interesting point -maybe what women and men want just differ -and each can now live their lives without having to compromise.
Having divorced, I never want to live again with a man , and luckily am financially able to do so. No desire to be a carer for an old man. If a boyfriend is an option, would be happy to have that kind of relationship, but not actually seeking one.
so lucky compared to women in the past trapped in abusive marriages with no escape.
My exh can’t cope without a woman to go the wifework. He was obsessively pursued by a very much younger woman with four kids who needs a man to support her. She can have his drooling old age - she will earn
her money! Meanwhile I am enjoying fun times, a job I love and lots of laughter.

Okay- so just to play devils advocate

why should men change to suit what women think they should be - what benefit is it to them if they don’t want kids / relationships

just because one group of people has gone through revolution why should that group point at another group and say “you need change “ to suit our needs

women are outperforming men in almost every way now - what if men just stuck their collective fingers up and said we are not changing and we don’t want or care about you anymore

you would have a group of well educated, well informed, well paid women that no one wants to love or respect or be relationships with or have a family with, as that seems to be what the female led future holds

The mad thing is, men want loving, secure, supportive relationships as much as women do. They just seem to have a little trouble grasping that they aren't entitled to them. Or to women, for that matter.

In the not-too-distant past, they could basically force women to act loving and supportive because the women's survival depended on it. Not always, of course: there have been both independent women and lovely men (and gay people) at all times; but the usual model was deeply coercive.

I think there's some kind of existential battle going on in the collective male psyche between the He-Man (Control your woman!) trope and the Evolved Masculinity ideal. I'm rooting for the modern version and lots of happy, continuously chosen marriages.

I don't think that is you playing "devils advocate" - you're basically saying yes to what I posted and sticking your tongue out.

Mate, it is no skin off my nose if men who don't want to act respectfully to women don't pro-create. The nice ones who are decent seem to be doing a pretty good job. I think you might find it's called Natural Selection.

Great thread if you ask me as a resigned-to-being-single-not-a-relationship-person.

You speak as if woman need men, we dont, we dont care if you dont want to change, we are only prepared to engage with those of you who treat us well.

I think there's a lot of truth in this post.

As an aside unfortunately a lot of what women claim to want and what they actually want is very different. Which is partly why some men do quietly opt out. They may do a bit of dating etc but reluctant to commit.

@Bewareofthisonetoo

A make friend of mine got divorced after his wife had an affair with her boss. She left and he kept the very nice house and has fully custody of the kids.

A woman he was dating was starting to talk about marriage, so he ended the relationship. The woman wasn't nearly as asset rich as him and he had no interest in placing his family home at risk via marriage.

I think fear of getting fucked over by the legal system is a major reason why men refuse to commit.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way.

The zero compromise attitude of some women isn't of interest to a lot of men.

There was a another thread recently where a woman in her 60's was asking for advice about a potential cocklodger that had started staying over at weekends. The advice was to dump him. Fair enough.

One person replied with a big list of things that you should never do/allow. Some were definitely things you wouldn't want. Others were completely innocuous in the context of a relationship - e.g. you should never give a man a lift, you should never cook for him. Multiple people were applauding the list as some kind of insightful truth.

What kind of relationship has one person point-blank refusing to give their partner a lift somewhere? Where one person point-blank refuses to cook for their partner. How is that going to be conducive to a normal family life?

It's that level of intransigence and, quite frankly, weird rules that will have men gladly walking away in the direction of somebody more chilled out and normal.

I'm sure I'll be told that it's a woman's right to set her boundaries, but the same goes for men.

How many people, male or female, are going to find a partner if they have these zero compromise attitudes?

Damn, I must have missed the klaxon because I was too busy being a terrible husband and ignoring the DC.
I’ll try and respond to the next one more quickly!

But she was okay to have sex with

What's your point? Are we obliged to marry every person we have sex with?

How quaint.

You have to ask yourself, what would be the motivation for men to treat/appreciate women/their families any better? Are there any consequences if they don't? The only one that gets thrown out is the financial cost of divorce, only even that is now more in the favour of men as it starts at 50/50 regardless of how much anyone looks after any dependents.

They become single. They then dont live as long and have worse health than men who are able to have mutually agreeable relationships with women. I understand that's what the stats say.

Others were completely innocuous in the context of a relationship - e.g. you should never give a man a lift, you should never cook for him
That does sound extreme @ThisOldThang !