What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

I think you need to be a bit more specific

If we accept most people go into relationships with the best of intentions

Are you talking about men having their first full blown relationship with a partner and kids or a divorced Dad with kids etc

Well in my case my ex has some serious psychological issues and seems to think his appalling behaviour is fine. Absolute narc.

Some men, like some women, have never seen a healthy relationship and wouldn’t recognise one at three inches distance. Gendered socialisation means that men have not been trained to see relationships as a ‘prize’, or to prioritise them particularly, or to work as hard at them as women who are still, depressingly too often socialised to think of marriage as an achievement. Add in the domestic effects of patriarchy, and there you have it.

As a bloke, I agree. Once the initial excitement has worn off, many men see a relationship as a burden. Also, (and there are exceptions, obviously) children are not so important to men as they are to women. That at any rate is from my personal observation.

@JaneFrances

I think men are lost in the modern society they created

When they were being “brought up by a village”, there was a sense of belonging, extensive inter generational socialisation, with other adult men and women, rites of passage, physical activity

Now a young man growing probably only knows a few adults in his family and a handful of teachers, if they’re crap, no other role models, has no rites of passage or signal marking his growth into a man, nothing, if parents are careless, he can well decide to rot alone in a bedroom from the age of 10 with the computer for only company and be left there for years, missing out on all the milestones

Even military service was not a bad thing from a developmental perspective, 1y spent under a strong authority, learn how to work as a collective and for the community, physical activity, travel, do ‘dangerous’ stuff, that’s the lived experience that turns boys into men by making them see how things can be greater than their own selves.

All of that disappeared, nothing replaced it, their universe is a lot smaller actually despite the internet and all the trappings of pop culture, that’s why they don’t grow or mature

Lundy Bancroft makes very pertinent points on this subject in his book "why does he do that".

Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

Worthwhile means work, and equality. Equality means lack of selfishness, lack of double standards, and having empathy.

Many men don't want work (other than that they can't avoid or that they enjoy to some extent) and don't want equality.

They don't want to live in a little democracy.- they want to live in a little autocracy.

They get lots and lots of privileges and benefits from that.

A lot of abuse comes from these values and from them making sure their relationship and household is that little autocracy.

For some men, the benefits also include sex on their terms and a lack of pressure to meet the responsibilities that come with sex (without contraception) ...ie kids and child care are women's work.

I don't know why you find this behaviour surprising - all non western liberal democracies run like this .... Men set it up to their advantage so they don't have to do any work they don't want to, they don't have to do the drudgery of life, they don't have to deal with demanding kids (except a bit of Disney dad-ing) and so they get sex when they want it (and if they're inclined to cheat, they do that without consequence too).

Once the initial excitement has worn off, many men see a relationship as a burden

Yet somehow they keep getting into them and can't be single ....cause they want company and regular sex and housework and they don't want want to have to look after their kids on their own.

Don Hennessy also wrote a book on domestic abuse and a central argument in his text is that the men's motivation for access to sex - on their terms - underpins a lot of relationship abuse.

I don't agree 100% but it's certainly an important element.

Limited role models and probably more of those drawn from popular culture, social media and porn than real life.

There are women like that too and they are all just adults that grew up without healthy modelling of what good relationships are supposed to look like.

So 'all men' are the problems in the relationships, women never are?

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs?

They don't have the character or values to want that.

They are possibly on the narc/sociopath end of the scale.

Also, people who study DNA - historically/anthropologically have theorised on their findings that only the minority of men got access to women for reproduction and passed on their genes, and the implication was that that minority of men was not the kind, gentle, nurturing, faithful ones ..... They were the dominant, sociopathic, ruthless, promiscuous ones. We have a legacy of that in our population.

(A famous example is that Genghis Khan's DNA is proportedly found in 1 in 12 men in Asia and 1 in 200 worldwide. He famously said the greatest pleasure in life was (paraphrasing) conquering other men's countries and fucking their women).

This thread is about men.

I was nodding along with this. Thank you for this post. I agree with it 100% but couldn't have expressed the sentiment so succinctly.

I would also add that the number of posts about shit men on MN can't be seen to be a fair or entirely accurate representation of the situation, given that no-one has heard the man's side of the story.

Add in the element of competitiveness that is socialised into many men from a young age.
They start to see their partner as an opponent, not as a collaborator.
This can be low level, like wanting to beat you in a quiz or game and triumphing when you lose.
Or high level, as seen in divorce proceedings when separating from such men.

Cultural upbringing!!!

What went wrong also implies they've not always been like this ...... But they most definitely have.

Mary Beard came across a sad plaque among ancient Roman memorials made by a young woman's family in her memory, who'd been murdered by her abusive possessive husband.

Her family were exceptional (and probably pretty comfortably off) in doing that and in making it clear who was responsible for her death; what percentage of women do you think were the same but didn't have a plaque in their memory?

They've always always been like this. They've always gotten away with it to a much greater degree as well. You only know about it because it's spoken about more and because more women leave now (because they can get benefits or have their own income).

In relationships with women?

Imo: it’s just too much effort for the poor dears, so they either find someone with no boundaries to walk over and treat like shit or become an intel. Sadly.

Yes, this thread is about abusive men in relationships with women.

Otherwise this would be lbgt-net.

Do read the OP again. It doesn't say 'all men' it says 'some men' and 'all the men' talked about on MN.

That subset of MN that women here moan about, yes there is a trend. They want all the perks of a relationship (regular sex, housework done, meals made) but none of the responsibility or drudgery. They basically want a sex and house-stuff robot and treat their partners exactly like one.

It's obvious the decent men the OP also gives a nod to don't get moaned about on a thread...?

I'm inclined to ignore the NAMLT derailer.

Wonder whether they think they are correcting us? Wonder why they think it's necessary? Wonder whether there is a klaxon that goes off somewhere that alerts them to come on and tell the women they'd better adjust their conversation, lest some man they don't know and will never meet gets upset.

It strikes me that many men just don’t want a relationship because it’s effort. They want sex, they want their washing done and they want a nice dinner but they ‘tolerate’ a relationship in order to have those things on tap.

This goes even more for children - they have children in order to keep the person providing the above services happy, not because they want them.

Obviously, namalt, but I think it’s a fair representation of the thought processes of quite a lot of men.

Apologies, I just realised that several others have said the same thing.