Page 3 | What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

Autumn1990 · 21/05/2024 23:23

In agricultural societies marriage worked in the majority of cases (men actually wanted a wife) because even a small farm needed the labour of two people, land to be cultivated usually by the man, woman did the dairying and chickens cooked cleaned, made clothing etc.
Later when most jobs were in factories/mines etc I think it was peer group pressure. Men were expected to marry, have children, support the household, not go drinking to excess although some would. Often they couldn’t progress at work if they weren’t married and seen to be a good member of society.
Now there aren’t many men who actually need a LTR, don’t need the additional labour, no pressure to get settled down.

StarDolphins · 21/05/2024 23:23

SpringerFall · 21/05/2024 10:54

So 'all men' are the problems in the relationships, women never are?

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You’ve completely twisted what op said🤣

also, read her first sentence if you’re confused.

cultjarteriaky · 21/05/2024 23:28

Childhood trauma and poor role models
Same for women

Original poster

JaneFrances · 21/05/2024 23:30

StarDolphins · 21/05/2024 23:23

You’ve completely twisted what op said🤣

also, read her first sentence if you’re confused.

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Let's help you out @SpringerFall

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

OP posts:

SlothsNeverGetIll · 22/05/2024 01:05

Saratoga212 · 21/05/2024 23:20

I could not help but express my amusement that someone would completely disregard one of the main activities - obsessions in fact (playing and watching) of the vast majority of men, in terms of "testosterone release" - so shoot me.

Edited

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Aah I see. It might be an idea to express yourself using words next time.

Mmhmmn · 22/05/2024 01:15

Saratoga212 · 21/05/2024 10:48

Once the initial excitement has worn off, many men see a relationship as a burden

Yet somehow they keep getting into them and can't be single ....cause they want company and regular sex and housework and they don't want want to have to look after their kids on their own.

They also don’t want to have to feed themselves. I mean it is piss poor.

songaboutjam · 22/05/2024 02:26

I think in general, men as a group rely on women more than women as a group rely on men. Married men live longer and widowers die younger. This pattern is reversed in women.

A lot of men I have spoken to express a core sense of loneliness or societal isolation, a desire for intimacy, and of course a sex drive that is generally higher than a woman's. Obviously women experience these things too but it seems to be very pronounced in men.

A few months ago I had a conversation with a male friend about the distinction between platonic and romantic partnerships. The lines there were far more blurred to me than to him - he gave the example that there were just some things that you only shared with your SO. It's much more difficult for me to relate to this as a woman because it's socially acceptable to have very close platonic friends that you completely confide in. (Incidentally, I think this is one reason why men fall for close female friends - they associate that intimacy with a partner).

The problem is that many of these lonely men chase relationships as a solution to the lack of emotional intimacy, when some of them really can't handle the commitment. Some will even get resentful that they can only meet their emotional needs through this commitment, and become abusive. And some have been brought up to be extremely selfish, which leads to trying to have the cake and eat it too.

Meadowfinch · 22/05/2024 02:39

Plenty of them grew up in an environment where they saw their dad bullying and dominating their mum. And their mum doing all the work. They are raised to think that is normal. Then they grow up, add in a large dose of testosterone and meeting a woman who doesn't want to clean their toilet or wash their socks - and you have a formula for violence and aggression.

I no longer bother with relationships because it's predictable and tedious meeting entitled lazy unpleasant man after entitled lazy unpleasant man.

Life is much nicer when single

Meadowfinch · 22/05/2024 03:00

@BiologicalKitty You may be right about competition.

My high achieving ex regarded me as desirable and 'aspirational' (his later explanation), I had a career, my own house, nice car, successful at a competitive sport.
Then I was pregnant, made redundant, a single mum and suddenly I wasn't aspirational any more. The contempt and abuse started. Nothing I said brought him to his senses. He didn't notice that he was a single dad!

So I left, took ds with me, got a new job, bought another house & car. Got my figure back, returned to my career but now with ds as a huge motivator.

Suddenly I was 'aspirational' again and ex wanted to come back.

Not a chance ! I'd rather choke. I'm not wasting my life with a shallow selfish spineless abusive arse. And I don't want him passing on his shabby values to my son either.

bluetopazlove · 22/05/2024 03:25

Autumn1990 · 21/05/2024 23:23

In agricultural societies marriage worked in the majority of cases (men actually wanted a wife) because even a small farm needed the labour of two people, land to be cultivated usually by the man, woman did the dairying and chickens cooked cleaned, made clothing etc.
Later when most jobs were in factories/mines etc I think it was peer group pressure. Men were expected to marry, have children, support the household, not go drinking to excess although some would. Often they couldn’t progress at work if they weren’t married and seen to be a good member of society.
Now there aren’t many men who actually need a LTR, don’t need the additional labour, no pressure to get settled down.

This is absolutely true men were encouraged to get married younger in many careers ,it was thought of as good for stability .Certainly was encouraged in armed forces .
I really don't know if it's still encouraged in high flying careers anymore ,Past that age now .

Garlicked · 22/05/2024 03:57

nfkl · 21/05/2024 10:23

I think men are lost in the modern society they created

When they were being “brought up by a village”, there was a sense of belonging, extensive inter generational socialisation, with other adult men and women, rites of passage, physical activity

Now a young man growing probably only knows a few adults in his family and a handful of teachers, if they’re crap, no other role models, has no rites of passage or signal marking his growth into a man, nothing, if parents are careless, he can well decide to rot alone in a bedroom from the age of 10 with the computer for only company and be left there for years, missing out on all the milestones

Even military service was not a bad thing from a developmental perspective, 1y spent under a strong authority, learn how to work as a collective and for the community, physical activity, travel, do ‘dangerous’ stuff, that’s the lived experience that turns boys into men by making them see how things can be greater than their own selves.

All of that disappeared, nothing replaced it, their universe is a lot smaller actually despite the internet and all the trappings of pop culture, that’s why they don’t grow or mature

This is incredibly naïve. In that sepia-tinted past, numerous laws had to be passed to stop men keeping the neighbours awake with their wife-beating (unsuccessful), limiting the thickness of the rod with which a man may beat his wife and so on. Jokes and songs about wife-beating were very popular up to and including the 1970s. Jokes and songs about rape, and relationships being a burden on men, are still prevalent today.

The right to use corporal punishment on a wife was removed in 1891. The right to rape a wife was removed in 1991.

Military service promoted camaraderie between men, and did nothing or less for women. The sexual use and abuse of women in war zones has always been a tremendous problem, certainly not encouraging equality, and if you've ever visited the veterans' forums you will see that respect for women isn't exactly the norm. More than 1 in 10 Armed Forces personnel have experienced Intimate Partner Violence and Abuse according to the King’s Centre for Military Health Research. Armed Servicewomen are having a problem with on-site rape and being ordered to shut up about it.

The problem, as Bancroft explains, is cultural disrespect of women - which is traditional, long-standing, and exemplified by what I've written here.

bluetopazlove · 22/05/2024 04:40

Just to say what you have read on armed forces forums none of it is true of course maybe they do seem to have a weird sense of humour they don't tend to bring it home to the dinner table . The MQ's are very ordinary places . Not once have I ever in so many years have I ever worried about any of my friends or neighbours . You do get the odd ball as you get else where .Let's also not forget that some of the stories we read in the read in press 'Mirror' are all made up . But I'm not going trawling for the odd nut case soldier cos there is nutcases everywhere .

Catsmere · 22/05/2024 05:03

Saratoga212 · 21/05/2024 10:42

Lundy Bancroft makes very pertinent points on this subject in his book "why does he do that".

Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

Worthwhile means work, and equality. Equality means lack of selfishness, lack of double standards, and having empathy.

Many men don't want work (other than that they can't avoid or that they enjoy to some extent) and don't want equality.

They don't want to live in a little democracy.- they want to live in a little autocracy.

They get lots and lots of privileges and benefits from that.

A lot of abuse comes from these values and from them making sure their relationship and household is that little autocracy.

For some men, the benefits also include sex on their terms and a lack of pressure to meet the responsibilities that come with sex (without contraception) ...ie kids and child care are women's work.

I don't know why you find this behaviour surprising - all non western liberal democracies run like this .... Men set it up to their advantage so they don't have to do any work they don't want to, they don't have to do the drudgery of life, they don't have to deal with demanding kids (except a bit of Disney dad-ing) and so they get sex when they want it (and if they're inclined to cheat, they do that without consequence too).

Edited

You nailed it.

Neurodiversitydoctor · 22/05/2024 05:10

Garlicked · 22/05/2024 03:57

This is incredibly naïve. In that sepia-tinted past, numerous laws had to be passed to stop men keeping the neighbours awake with their wife-beating (unsuccessful), limiting the thickness of the rod with which a man may beat his wife and so on. Jokes and songs about wife-beating were very popular up to and including the 1970s. Jokes and songs about rape, and relationships being a burden on men, are still prevalent today.

The right to use corporal punishment on a wife was removed in 1891. The right to rape a wife was removed in 1991.

Military service promoted camaraderie between men, and did nothing or less for women. The sexual use and abuse of women in war zones has always been a tremendous problem, certainly not encouraging equality, and if you've ever visited the veterans' forums you will see that respect for women isn't exactly the norm. More than 1 in 10 Armed Forces personnel have experienced Intimate Partner Violence and Abuse according to the King’s Centre for Military Health Research. Armed Servicewomen are having a problem with on-site rape and being ordered to shut up about it.

The problem, as Bancroft explains, is cultural disrespect of women - which is traditional, long-standing, and exemplified by what I've written here.

Show quote history

This interesting DD ( now 17) did army cadets for a bit. She was very good at it, she is fit, clever and a pretty good markswoman. However she quit with my full support as the casual misogyny she had to deal with was on another level to anything I had encountered. I honestly couldn't believe it in 2022.

Inspireme2 · 22/05/2024 05:14

Power & Control
Mental health issues
Lack of respect
Superiority
Damaged from marriage or previous relationship
Addiction issues
Attitude
Lack of decent Role models
Angry
Bitter with life
Mismatched couple

Catsmere · 22/05/2024 05:32

It's less "what went wrong with men" than "was anything ever right with them" (as a class, before the usual NAMALT nonsense starts). They've had the whole of history their way. In the last century-odd women have fought for and gained rights in some parts of the world, and now there is a concerted push going on, with the collusion of many governments, to wind them back.

grinandslothit · 22/05/2024 05:46

I think there's always been something wrong with them. It's just that in recent decades, we're allowed to discuss it.

Blackcats7 · 22/05/2024 06:10

After divorce I had to have support from Stop Domestic Abuse charity. They sent someone (a man who seemed really a nice chap) out to fit alarms to my home.
We got chatting and I asked him was it always women he was sent to help and he said in many years of employment he had only met one male victim and his abuser was another male. I asked him why do men want to control and bully women and his reply was "because we are disgusting animals at heart who are entirely selfish".

Maddy70 · 22/05/2024 06:19

I know many women who are like that too. Some PEOPLE are just hideous but the majority are not. Also, I think that many people are unsuitable for each other and bring out the worst in each other rather than the best

They are different with different partners

User135644 · 22/05/2024 06:38

Whycantiwinmillionsandsquillions · 21/05/2024 23:03

I think this has always been the case.
I’ve said for a long time that the majority of men do not want children.
That if their long term partner said I’m not having children then they would go along with this.
As most women want children they just go along with that. What other option is there? To leave a comfortable lifestyle with sex on tap and a nice home. Most men won’t sacrifice that, so they go along with having a child because it doesn’t affect them that much.
In the past women tolerated awful behaviour. What choice did they have? They couldn’t even get a mortgage never mind expect to get promoted to earn a decent wage. There was a lot of stigma attached to being a single mother. Pregnant women almost had to get married. Just because someone stayed in a relationship does not mean it was a happy one.
I think if more women didn’t want children then more of them would stay single.

A lot of men don't want children but want the convenience of a relationship.

A lot of women want children, but don't really want men.

The result = divorce post kids a lot of the time

bluetopazlove · 22/05/2024 06:46

Catsmere · 22/05/2024 05:32

It's less "what went wrong with men" than "was anything ever right with them" (as a class, before the usual NAMALT nonsense starts). They've had the whole of history their way. In the last century-odd women have fought for and gained rights in some parts of the world, and now there is a concerted push going on, with the collusion of many governments, to wind them back.

Edited

If you really think there are governments in this world making changes out there for ordinary women or men for that matter to make their life better you need to catch up ,they're not .

Bewareofthisonetoo · 22/05/2024 06:57

nfkl · 21/05/2024 10:23

I think men are lost in the modern society they created

When they were being “brought up by a village”, there was a sense of belonging, extensive inter generational socialisation, with other adult men and women, rites of passage, physical activity

Now a young man growing probably only knows a few adults in his family and a handful of teachers, if they’re crap, no other role models, has no rites of passage or signal marking his growth into a man, nothing, if parents are careless, he can well decide to rot alone in a bedroom from the age of 10 with the computer for only company and be left there for years, missing out on all the milestones

Even military service was not a bad thing from a developmental perspective, 1y spent under a strong authority, learn how to work as a collective and for the community, physical activity, travel, do ‘dangerous’ stuff, that’s the lived experience that turns boys into men by making them see how things can be greater than their own selves.

All of that disappeared, nothing replaced it, their universe is a lot smaller actually despite the internet and all the trappings of pop culture, that’s why they don’t grow or mature

Well said. I am a teacher and feel do sorry for the lost boys who aren’t shown the role models or given the opportunities to practise positive masculinity.

BeenThere101 · 22/05/2024 06:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Bewareofthisonetoo · 22/05/2024 07:01

Hereyoume · 21/05/2024 12:35

Because all the "good" ones are taken.

And also there are loads of really good men who are dismissed because we don't think they are good enough, because "we only deserve the best".

Also, (EVERY time I mention this on a thread I get grief) there's not much incentive for the tiny percentage of success men to get into a LTR.

Let's be brutally honest, most of us aren't self made millionaires, the successful guy invariably ends up providing the home, pays the bills, and loses at least half of his assets if there is a divorce. What does the average woman bring to the table in that very common scenario?

Kids?

She won't be a "housewife" because that's considered controlling and demeaning and in the above scenario she would I side on having cleaners, possibly even a aupair.

The biggest shift I think is the desire to have children. A lot of men these days just don't want to have any, so there's no point in marriage or a LTR. The idea of a loving relationship, having each others backs, well it's mostly nonsense isn't it.

We aren't very supportive TBH, and once kids come along, for the vast majority of women, their men are surplus to requirements, and they just need to shut up, pay the bills, stop asking for sex, and keep out of the way.

I think that "men" are having a disproportionately shit time ATM.

Load of threads on here about how none of them can be trusted, definitely NO males of any age can babysit, they're all predators don't you know!

All taxi drivers are rapists.

All police officers are rapists.

All fire fighters are cheating bastards.

The list goes on.

If they show any aggression at all, under virtually any circumstance, obviously they are abusers. But we also expect them to "be men" and protect us. Just as long as they are polite about it 🙄

They MUST have drive and ambition, they must work hard. But obviously not too hard because there will be hell to pay if they miss the school run.

This is slight tongue in cheek, but I just think that there are lots of good men out there, we just give them a really fucking hard time.

Interesting and yes really good points

Fs365 · 22/05/2024 07:11

Theothername · 21/05/2024 10:52

Limited role models and probably more of those drawn from popular culture, social media and porn than real life.

I think this ^^ combined the failure to educate boys and young men has young men lost in society that doesn’t want them