Why do so many women set the bar so low?

[Anonymouseey]

I’m feeling so sad having just read the latest ‘he does nothing but please don’t suggest I leave him thread’. Why? Why do women want so little for themselves? Every day there’s a thread like it, half the time the woman seems to pay for everything too so the man brings nothing!

I am in a same sex marriage. We have our issues but everything is 50:50 there is no doubt about that. When I had a child free weekend with friends my first thought is ‘right we’d better work out when my wife gets the equivalent for herself’.

So what’s the reason? Is it self esteem? Is it fear of being single? I do have slightly more understanding when there is financial reliance on the relationship because that must be scary but in the cases where the man doesn’t even pay it just makes zero sense to me.

I'd agree that the quality of men has declined, but I saw a podcast that tried to explain it by saying women these days don't offer men anything either. These are the comments in the podcast:

The modern woman is strong, independent, and self-sufficient, so support-wise doesn't need a man.
Many can't/won't cook, cleaning is off the table, and being a housewife is seen as 'oppression', so that element is out too.
'Body positivity' has also become more of a thing recently too, meaning that his glamorous supermodel believes she no longer has to look good (or his idealised perception of it); ~50% of uk women are now obese. So she's not going to stay attractive for him either.
And historically, sex was somewhat seen as an obligation, and that thankfully is out the window as well.

However, women still statistically aim for men who earn more than them, who are financially secure.

So, what does a man get out of the relationship? He's not getting the 'traditional' woman who needs him, nor a housewife who takes care of him, nor a woman who looks after herself, and he's probably not getting any sex either... then, when the relationship breaks down, he'll lose the majority of his assets too. If men don't 'appear' to benefit from a marriage, why would they put any effort into one?

It goes both ways, of course, and it's a feedback loop... the less attractive men are to women, the less women put in the effort, which feeds the 'sloth' of men. Men aren't helping out, are less ambitious, sleep around... I don't think it's one gender's fault at all.

It must be hard to be a man. As the level equalises one goes up and one goes down. Men must feel like they going down but that’s because they have been too high for too long. Still it must feel a bit rubbish when you’ve just been like that for so long.

I agree OP. I had no idea there were so many appalling men out there until I joined these forums

But surely forming such an opinion based on these forums is a poor place to start? Women don't post here to state how awesome their relationship is with their caring, thoughtful, considerate partners do they? If they did they would be called goady and smug. People post here to seek advice and/or vent over the shite behaviour of the men in their lives.

I am in my late 40s now and sadly have seen many of the couples whose weddings I attended in my 20s separate and I can honestly say I can't see either sex having a monopoly on the shite behaviour that led to said divorce. I have long come to the conclusion that there are just lots of shit selfish people out there who always put themselves first irrespective of the trail of damage they leave in their wake.

@Asantesauna, good grief. Than you very much for the find words and I would not be able to answer your questions of course.

I have lived in a few nations and it opened my eyes to some sexist presumptions I had. I think there is a difference in unexpected ways. In Belgium, Sweden and Denmark, women have seen me as men in the UK saw me (partners and housemates) as a good cook and good at keeping the house. My ex-gfs in Britain would happily tell you that I was a slob with no idea how to cook. How much is about them experiencing different sides of me is hard to say as they are sincere and I did not notice any difference.

I think (and I am not in the UK and have never been a woman) that there is pressure on women to be both very capable and also the perfect victim, whereas men have far less pressure to justify themselves in that way. That is patriarchy and in effects people just as much as a man I met who was shorter them me (sub 6') but claimed to be over 6', he would not see how he was affected by patriarchy either. It is easy to mock him, but he clearly felt real pressure to measure up.

I am in my late 40's. I think the younger generation is less like this. I remember having to explain to my Danish gf why she got poisonous looks in England when she said I did not exaggerate illness and was stoic. On the other hand, labour is worth increasingly less so the young men are relatively poorer.

Sorry, a lot of words for "I don't know". I have not special insight at all, just my impression.

...to add to the negativity @Asantesauna
There are still plenty who really are with horrible men.
And the level of creepy behaviour seems equally high everywhere the the most shocking misogyny I encountered was in the USA.

Interesting.

To be honest I think if you are a single 'strong, independent, and self-sufficient' person (man or women) the pull factors for entering into a long term relationship with someone have to be pretty damn strong. Marriage rates have been declining for years and there is less social stigma these days with being single at an age when our folks were long since married with kids. I do see more single men and women who are by any yardstick 'successful' (professional job, solvent with savings, home owner, good health etc) opting to stay single and not 'settle' which is not exactly a bad thing.

The usual Woman are from Venus, Men are from Mars situation. Men and woman are by and large very different in their upbringing, interests, moral values, etc. You need to learn to give and take in a relationship to find as best fit as possible. Trying to find a partner that meets every item on a large list of criteria is unlikely to happen.

I find it highly unlikely that every, or even a significant majority of women who have partners who cheat, are abusive or don't pull their weight at home have caused their partners to become this way due to their obesity, disinterest in sex and lack of aptitude for domestic tasks.
However, I do think within that you have touched on something. Women with their own careers and independence don't need men to do the traditional things men were useful for. So rather than adapt and find other ways to bring something to the table, childcare, domestics etc, many have simply chosen to allow themselves to become obsolete. They don't feel good about it, and rather than look to themselves, they become sullen and sulky and see it as something women have done to them.
Meanwhile, women become increasingly frustrated at doing the jobs of both parties. Things would improve considerably if men accepted that they need to diversify if their supply is to be in line with todays demand.

I don't think many modern women how you have described exist. The ones that do as you say will just be seen as high maintenance by men and not worth the trouble/effort when they can just get with someone less demanding.

Yes absolutely, this is the crux you’ve hit upon

The modern woman is strong, independent, and self-sufficient, so support-wise doesn't need a man.

I just have to say something about this.
This is something that get repeated a lot.
And I don’t believe or see this to be true.
At all.
And before anyone jumps me, I’m a woman muself.
I don’t see these strong, independent, self-suffient women around.
Most women have (male) partners.
Or they want one.
And men being money, DIY, companionship, etc into these women’s lives.
I don’t know any women who have been/lived/done everything on their own for long time.

And historically, sex was somewhat seen as an obligation, and that thankfully is out the window as well.

And this way of thinking is very much alive still today.
Many believe they are owned sex. Or that they have to ’put out’.
It’s gross.

@5128gap not needing a man in the traditional way isn't the same as not needing, or at least not benefiting at all. I'm a man who doesn't "need" a woman for any of the traditional ways, but I couldn't imagine deciding the idea of a relationship with a woman was redundant.

It just means a different kind of relationship with a different dynamic, we're a social animal and our best achievements are always collaborative in some way

That’s hard - I must admit. I’ve got no experience of that - none of my divorced friends were in this situation, but I can see that this would be very difficult as well.

95% men don't want to be in a relationship with a modern women as described above.

They want to be with someone easy going who doesn't make a big deal out of things and easy to live with.

A big reason the majority of men want to be in relationship's is easy regular sex without having to go to the effort of finding different women, dating, getting dressed to impress and been on best behaviour.

I think herein lies the danger.
Feminism is a wonderful thing, but it comes with this downside. For centuries there have been two defined roles: man supports (job), woman maintains (house/family).
These days, women are being raised to know they can do it all, and that they are amazing, and quite rightly - they can, and they are! But then when they get into a relationship, the man is hit with this you're not needed energy. I'd argue that this is actually one of the most hurtful things you can tell a man actually.

Confidence is great, but leading back to the OP's point, if women are holding out for the best men... and even in relationships, telling them (consciously or subconsciously), that they're not needed... where does this leave men? As you said, you then have women actually DOING everything, because they've been told they can, the man stepping back because he's feeling like he's not needed, and then the woman feeling frustrated that this is not a small workload to handle on their own.

So @5128gap , your comment of "women...don't need men to do the traditional things men were useful for"... if this is the case, this type of women is effectively encroaching upon the man's (traditional, usefulness) territory. Where does he 'expand' to? How is he meant to add value, or at least feel that he is?

@Andyls

95% men don't want to be in a relationship with a modern women as described above

That's a statistic you just made up. You're not an authority on this are you? You're a woman who's been treated poorly by men like this, or a man who is like this? There are plenty of people (some on the thread) who know different, and have a different experience of their 'majority of men', because nobody's experience is representative of the majority of men.

Lets be honest, you just made that up and want it to be true so its aligns with your bias and prejudices.

Sounds like most men you know are looking for pro bono friendly prostitute.

This is all complete rubbish. My parents both worked and no way would our family have survived financially without both salaries.

More importanly, one thing I notice about a lot of men these days is that even when they claim they want the "traditional" set up, I note that they're often not exactly living up to their side of the bargain. I remember dads being responsible for a whole lot more than just going to work.... ALL the heavy lifting and "dirty" jobs were theirs from bins to late night emergency calpol runs to dog poo to lawn mowing to spider removal to gutters to whatever. It was dads who were doing a lot of the fetching and driving around to sports activities and late pick ups from parties. Camping trips, teaching kids to ride their bikes, walks, DIY etc etc etc. It was dads who handled ALL the general admin at home including, for example, in the deeply sexist environment I grew up in it was the dads who signed permission slips etc etc. Men (with their big brains, natch) did lots of the homework overseeing. Men took charge of ensuring drinks were filled at parties, furntiure was moved and recycling took place after. Silly, meaningless things in the bigger scheme of things but I'm making a point about how VISIBLE men were when I was growing up, even in so-called traditional set ups where he worked and she had a little pin money job or was a SAHM.

But today? Well, it's so often true that these men who complain that they can't please women any more and want their dinners cooked and the kitchen cleaned, are certainly NOT stepping up to do any of these other tasks that the men I grew up around did. The correlation between couples where the man is simply not visible at parties because, at best, he's at the BBQ but mostly he's just chatting and having a good time, who doesn't do any of the kids- schlepping, who happily leaves all the heavy lifting to his female partner (x10 if it's because "well, women say they're equal innit?) and couples that are unhappy/don't make it is pretty high in my extended circle of friends/acquaintances.

All massive generalisations and huge cliches, but born out by my own experience. And of course, this can work the other way. But my point is that I get so tired of the whole, "oh, well women want it all now and what do men have left?" when the men are clearly not interested.

95% men don't want to be in a relationship with a modern women as described above.

And that’s they prerogative.

I think I didn’t explain well enough.
What I meant that I don’t believe many women are those things.
They can be loud, entitled, arrogant, selfish AND CLAIM to be some modern amazing women, but that doesn’t make it so, or mean they are independent, strong etc.

A big reason the majority of men want to be in relationship's is easy regular sex without having to go to the effort of finding different women, dating, getting dressed to impress and been on best behaviour.

By all means, as long as they are honest and don’t pretend it’s anything meaningful or ’love’.

Had a real Men are From Mars moment today. Went to marriage counselling with my DH today. He said he feels I'm fed up of him because he doesn't earn enough and I don't respect him because he's not career driven!

When in reality he's horrible and unkind to me very regularly and it makes me feel like shit and I want it to stop.

Such different perceptions.

He still believes his value is based on his income and he resents that. But its not actually based in reality.

@GerbilsForever24

Your entire post is a projection of your own experience, which is solely one person's experience. It's not an authoritative experience, or one that anybody else lives by, except yourself. You 'getting tired' of people who have had different experiences isn't a sign that your experience is somehow 'more valid', it's a sign that you need to rest. If there are enough people with different experiences to yours that you're 'getting tired' of it, perhaps consider that other people might be right, too? In the same way that people who spend all their time at the stables could have a valid point in saying 'Most people in my experience ride horses' would be prats if they went down to the cycling track and expected them to not say 'most people ride horses'.

Out of all my friends (and me) only one is divorced, the rest never married and do not have partners except one but he has his own place. We are all very happy. I only sometimes wish I had a partner but I think for mainly selfish reasons - going for drives (assuming they had a car!), cheaper holidays (no single supplement!!), DIY and just occasional companionship. So just as well I am on my own! I never wanted children and only my divorced friend has kids, albeit very grown up. We all have great interest in for example, the arts and we get together for book club, dinner, theatre, cinema etc.

When I hear about women who are 'not allowed' out or can't get out because of having kids and their partner is always out I am very glad I am single!

My idea of hell would be to be 'saddled' with a number of kids and never managed to get out because the pig of a man is always out and does not want to 'baby sit' his own kids. Also one that takes over the tv for all his sport or one that always brought his friends back with him.

Thats just dating an abuser op.

And if your therapist knows he talks to you horribly then they should have taken you asside and told you they couldn't see you anymore because no therapist worth their salt gives couples councilling to people in abusive relationships.

Why the hell are you trying to make something work with q man who treats you like shit?

He's not just a man being a man. He's an abuser being being abuser.

Typically making therapy all about how mean you are to him and how little 'respect' you give him.

Its not a different perception. He knows he's a bully. He just will never admit it as he wants you to be driven mad and broken, thinking you are the problem.

Get individual councling for yourself and take steps to leave your abuser.

Abusers cannot be fixed through marriage counciling. They aren't broken, they are just predators. And you, are his prey. Run.

He's not just a man being a man. He's an abuser being being abuser

I think this is a mistake often made. Abuse by men is put down to being 'how men are', and 'how men understand the world', and so it's accepted, because, well, 'he can't stop being a man, can he?' Abuse by women is 'put down to' other stuff too. It's all very skewed, and for this reason, very poorly misreported, and for this reason, very difficult to study, or get definitive conclusions on.