Why do so many women set the bar so low?

[Anonymouseey]

I’m feeling so sad having just read the latest ‘he does nothing but please don’t suggest I leave him thread’. Why? Why do women want so little for themselves? Every day there’s a thread like it, half the time the woman seems to pay for everything too so the man brings nothing!

I am in a same sex marriage. We have our issues but everything is 50:50 there is no doubt about that. When I had a child free weekend with friends my first thought is ‘right we’d better work out when my wife gets the equivalent for herself’.

So what’s the reason? Is it self esteem? Is it fear of being single? I do have slightly more understanding when there is financial reliance on the relationship because that must be scary but in the cases where the man doesn’t even pay it just makes zero sense to me.

Men aren't allowed most of those emotions, we've forgotten how to feel them. Protectiveness, jealousy, we're allowed them. And most men will protect their partners when they feel they're under threat, and will get jealous if they think their partners are looking elsewhere

But empathy, being caring, nope, we've lost those skills. We're allowed to do happy, as long as it's not happy. And we kind of get fear and sadness, but mostly they come out as a kind of anger

Tosh. Plenty of men display empathy and caring. Plenty of men need protection against their male partner. Jealousy and possessiveness aren't male traits and aren't down to male conditioning. A great deal of men are happy. A great deal of men can be sad or afraid without relating it to anger.

The traits mentioned here are displayed by fearful, insecure people, regardless of their sex.

Because the programming for girls is consistent, whether or not they're straight or gay. That does not mean, of course, that it is 100% effective in all situations or that ONLY men can be the dickheads. But it does mean, that overall, women are more likely to put up with shit (not just from men, from anyone), to feel they deserve less, to believe that they are to blame for things not going well etc whether or not they are in hetrosexual or homosexual relationships.

That doesn't mean that ALL women have onboarded this programming or that this programming is entirely consistent. But in a population of billions, it provides a framework.

There are still many variables from how people are brought up, family dynamics, education and experience etc etc etc. In my case, for example, I was brought up in a family where my dad was unusually domesticated and had himself being brought up by a strong single woman who was supported almost exclusively by extended female family members with an intrinsic belief that my grandmother in particular could have done anything if she'd not been held back by her sex (she was born at in the early 20th century). My mother had been on her own from the age of 16 until she met my dad 10 years later, so was extraordinarily competent and independent. My parents prioritised and valued education. I read voraciously and eclectically from a young age, giving me a different perspective on many things. These things did not stop me from absorbing many of the patriachal norms or societal programming I was surrounded by, but it certainly helped.

@GerbilsForever24

And what about the high rate of abuse in male homosexual relationships? Is the patriarchy telling one partner to abuse, and telling the other partner the opposite, to be an abuse victim?

Your model doesn't work, because the behaviour is universal. There are more straight relationships than gay ones, and the women may be victims of physical abuse on a more consistent level, but that's not the whole story. People of both sexes are treating people of both sexes like shit all the time. The patriarchy isn't an overarching solution to the 'why are women accepting abuse from men', because everyone is accepting abuse from everyone, so there must be something else going on other than the patriarchy.

This is so patronising. Some women are just so feeble minded with low self esteem that they stay with losers. Why don't they just accept that being single isn't scary and make their lives better?

It's like those tory MPs saying "just get a better paid job if you are poor".

I am one of those woman who people may think ltb.

Why don't i?

1. it is fucking expensive - to the point of not possible to separate and have a halfway decent life ("some understanding" means no understanding)

2. i really don't want to up end my children's lives by taking them out of their school, leaving the local area, cutting the family's disponsible income so no fun stuff at all (or even food in some cases) and only seeing them 50% of the time. And the emotional upset of course.

3. i like being in a companionable relationship. I am realistic enough to know I probably won't get this again at 50, or at least without a lot of fucking hassle that I don't want.

4. Not having a decent relationship is often down to both partners. On an internet forum, you are hearing only one side.

Basically, some us made a decision that wasn't the right one and have no palatable way out. And others made a decision that they are prepared to live with, albeit with the occasional moan. Others find the process of leaving very hard. ltb is stupidly and unrealistically easy to say. It is a gut-wrenching transition that can take years. Don't be so glib.

Unless you are talking about abuse. And that is a different kettle of fish. You shouldn't hand wring about how some women stick with abusers and muse about not being able to understand it, with an undertone of you wouldn't be so silly.

I know of a few friends in bad marriages but they stay for the financial aspect. One friend actually said to me the other day on her 31st wedding anniversary they were only happy for the first 6 years. He cheated on her shortly after having their first child. Due to the circumstances at the time she stopped working.

So she has spent the last 25 years in an unhappy marriage, since she found out he cheated on her she has not slept with him again and I presume he has not with anyone else (but who knows). He does nothing really, is miserable, a bully, is controlling etc but he has a lot of money.

She has openly admitted to putting up with it all due to this fact as she has spent so much time out of work she does not have the financial capacity to look after herself and she has horses, horseboxes, a beautiful home etc. She is not prepared to give that up so she stays.

I have always been financially independent after watching my mother go through 3 very bad marriages and have vowed never to be reliant on a man but I guess that's not the path everyone's life goes down. Very sad and a total waste of a life.

@Abstractthinking It's not patronising to ask for an explanation when you don't understand something. OP isn't telling you what to do because they think they know best. They're asking a question because they don't get it. It might be easy for you to understand because you're in it, but it's not easy to understand for everybody, so your post could be viewed as patronising too!

He sounds much worse than someone who just exists to do nothing ☹️.

Wishing you a speedy and smooth (as much as possible) escape 💐

Even in the most compatible relationships people can change. I find that we are preached that relationships are a life long commitment and you must never leave, you must never change or grow or learn. leaving often comes with a lot of shame
that you didn’t try hard enough or someone must be to blame, lots of
people aren’t comfortable with the more negative emotions. We tend to shift into this mindset that the other person is to blame and create resentment and issues when in fact you’ve just changed what you need.

They definitely do. My husband for a starter.

I had a young women I worked with who had a nice boyfriend. He was young and wanted to socialise and drink with his mates. It used to really annoy her, she’d come in ranting and raving. But then she was also desperate for him to propose. She’s say he’d soon stop doing those things for her.

Yes, they do.

I have a mate who reckons that probably it's because there aren't that many good men? Her view is that women compromise for children. I think she's right really. Most women I know really only have had issues when they have children and the man then either faxes his presence in or gets abusive as he can afford to. The issue is power. You need to be a really good person not to abuse it or someone who is dependent.

Women think they can change men and work on that instead of themselves.

For a start, we know that statistically MEN are more likely to be abusers, whether gay or straight.

And no, behaviour is not universal. Women are MORE likely to put up with poor treatment, emotional abuse, financial abuse because of all the things I have highlighted. Men are MORE likely to believe they have to do less, can get away with more and so on. And are more likely to be violent.

But of course that's not universal. Of course women can abuse and men can be abused, in both hetrosexual and homosexual relationships.

Overall however, the patterns are clear and are driven by our societal norms.

Just like we know from studies and research and endless personal and anecdotal experience that overall (not always) men and women doing or saying the exact same thing are likely to receive different responses. Whether that's in the workplace, relationships, parenting etc. That's the patriachy.

Part of the problem is many women are just attracted to proper wrong 'uns.

Yes, and it is understandable.
Imagine being a young woman given the choice between a hard working, slightly dull, selfless man of 5'10 who struggles to pay the rent for his room but has good career prospects....
or a 6'2" man, who is slightly irresponsible, messy and too cocky to tidy up after anyone else but has their own flat gifted by their parents.

I would not blame anyone for choosing the second. People will choose the what is attractive to them and that should not be a shock.

Well a lot of us don't set our bar, it's set for us, shown to us from childhood and reinforced within our communities and peer groups so it's all we know.
We grow up expecting little from men because that's all we've known them to give, and there's always someone worse off. I remember many moons ago being pathetically grateful that at least my substance using alcoholic partner went to work and was nice to me, and wasn't a violent abuser like my best friends husband. If I knew of a sober pleasant hard working man, who's worst failing was doing no housework or childcare, I'd have thought his wife a very lucky woman.
My self esteem wasn't low, I just thought that's what life with men was like unless you were very lucky, and it was the price to pay for a family. It took many years and going beyond my small deprived town to realise otherwise.

@GerbilsForever24

You're arguing my point at me. Cheers.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

Do I think it's gross to stay with a man who's filthy enough to leave skids in the bed and not take care of his personal hygiene? Yes. Does my view change if he's ft 2 and owns his own flat? No? He's still disgusting.

If you're ok to accept that in a partner then tbh more fool you.

So money and lifestyle basically.

If the useless knob brings home a decent pay packet women will prostitute their mental and physical health out for an ensuite and holiday to Sicily. But hey the photos look good online and everyone is jealous.

Some women either don't see, or simply ignore red flags, but people don't always understand how different some men can be before marriage and especially children. I've heard it several times on this forum - before marriage, the man is nodding along, saying all the right things, has similar political standpoints, they both have jobs, she feels respected and like his equal. They may have even been together since university.

Then she finds out the hard way that a lot of it was just talk, and that no matter what his politics are outside the home, that inside it, he's very much a 1950s man, often very similar to his father. Out golfing or biking most weekends, obviously thinking that now his genes are spread, the main job he intends on doing is going to work (which he'd be doing anyway), and sharing the money. Everything else, all the parenting he leaves to the mother, who often feels trapped.

My mother in law told my partner that changing nappies is a pink job. We don’t get on too well because I believe it’s a parents job. Perhaps it will change as the generation equalises?! My children will know it’s a parents job, they see us both doing it.

THere are a few things that I can think might happen.
People might value fun over hugiene to a huge extent. THere are plenyof well kept, hard working and slightly dull young men around who are very single. I am sure they would keep the sheets clean and do the housework but they are not getting girlfriends. People just have different priorities.
People also change, I was married to someone who had a job, could talk things through, wanted kids, we had a sex life (basically the whole package) and of course all of that stopped once married. I persisted for years before giving up.
There is perhaps also a specific issue for British women, that I think does relate the form of patriarchy in the UK. It is not as simple as British men being rubbish as British women are unusually likely to initiate a divorce regardless of the sex or nationality of their partner, perhaps a deep pressure to be a martyr combined with a healthy refusal to accept it.

I think the woman I know who has chosen a boring moron with no conversation or sensible opinions is because psychologically she wants to punish her wastrel father and this man doesn’t stand up to her

Honestly, you are being weird. I have said patriarchy is an issue. That just because some men are good and some women are bad, doesn't mean the patriarchy isn't a thing. It is. And lots of women are suffering as a result.