Why do so many women set the bar so low?

[Anonymouseey]

I’m feeling so sad having just read the latest ‘he does nothing but please don’t suggest I leave him thread’. Why? Why do women want so little for themselves? Every day there’s a thread like it, half the time the woman seems to pay for everything too so the man brings nothing!

I am in a same sex marriage. We have our issues but everything is 50:50 there is no doubt about that. When I had a child free weekend with friends my first thought is ‘right we’d better work out when my wife gets the equivalent for herself’.

So what’s the reason? Is it self esteem? Is it fear of being single? I do have slightly more understanding when there is financial reliance on the relationship because that must be scary but in the cases where the man doesn’t even pay it just makes zero sense to me.

Thank you for replying. Yes I totally see what you’re saying. Maybe in terms of the lack of financial contribution there is not a clear difference by sex but the ‘he does no childcare, domestic chores’ etc I’m afraid no one can convince me that this isn’t more common with men

Thank you for your reply @PotatoPudding . It is such a difficult situation dealing with the here and now nevermind worrying about the future. I hope you can escape one day and be free of the dickhead.

Thank you. I appreciate your words.

Because our society is built around couples and families. That is the standard model. It is actually very hard, socially, financially etc to be single long-term and not conform. You are the exception to the rule.

(If I became a single mother, if be in the vast vast minority in my kids school for example.
I also suspect some mums attitude would change towards me, because the you're a loose cabin and a threat. They think you'll be looking for a man and perhaps willing to take one who's not single). Single women are treated like this by other women all the time .... Lots of posters can say they'd be er do that but sorry, ime, you are treated differently and sometimes excluded.

Because they want kids, need men to have kids and then feel they need them to afford the kids.

Because common standards for men are extremely low, for a number of reasons. When an acquaintance's sister left her husband for going up his job to start a business and not starting one, playing games all day instead while she paid for the household imc the child care, and then he refused to drive her to the hospital during a miscarriage (the breaking point) she was told by numerous people that if he wasn't cheating on her or beating her, she shouldn't be divorcing him - she was being ott in divorcing him, esp because she has a son with him.

When my partner was physically threatening to me ..my sister said "they're all like that, Xenoi".

Back on the first example - people believe that families should be kept together if there are kids involved + and this heavily influences women.

On the low standards; many men are shit and our culture (most cultures enables them being shit) and until recently they had massive power over women and kids, so their suit behaviour was gotten away with/standard. And we still have that. It's not so long ago that women were referred to by their husbands first name as well as second, when they wouldn't have gotten a good deal in a divorce court, when they could be raped within marriage, when the police wouldn't take violence against them seriously.. it was just a "domestic" that she must have contributed too by being a nag etc. I grew up surrounded by things catering to men and their sexuality.. page 3 in newspapers, topless calendars, the Benny hill show and carry on laughing, porn mags that got found etc
We are not far down the road from all that. We are barely a second, in teens of the long-term, on from that total dominance and forced acceptance, and loads of people still think that way.

They think all men are pretty much shit, so they're not going to get better....and you can't be on your own because that's failure.

I think a lot of woman get blinded by their hormones and the desire to have a baby overtakes their common sense.

Not all obviously but some.

You certainly see it on Mumsnet a lot.

It's frog boiling scenario, or was in my case. Took me 3 years with a young child to boot him. It starts with a few little pushes against what's right and decent, and with kids to raise and work to do you gloss over it. Before you know it there's gloss everywhere and you've no idea how to get tf out. Add to that the idea of a 'broken home' being the worst outcome for the kids. I didn't really have that but plenty do.

I resent the implication in some replies that this has anything to do with desperation for a man.

As with all things relating to our parents some people manage to break the cycle and well done for that. It doesn't sound like your brother did though, and I do think women who move from one terrible man to the next are picking men like their fathers. It is fact that many of us do pick partners like our dads. Both DH and BIL are just like our Dad, but thankfully he was a good one (with some foibles 🤣)

My daughters are the same. They are both in long term relationships but their friends and careers are very important.

The only problem with these strong independent young women is if they suddenly decide they want kids and have to quickly find someone to settle down with. The biological clock isn't flexible.

Absolutely I have lesbian friends in unhealthy and abusive relationships but there never seems to be this same underlying expectation for one person to contribute zero. I dont know if I’m making sense here

Yes, but you're questioning the expectation, rather than why women 'allow men to do it to them'. Those two things are not the same. There may not be the expectation and the stereotype in same sex relationships, but that doesn't mean it happens any less. As you say, you've seen it yourself in lesbian relationships. There is often 'a lazy sod' in a relationship. Someone has to be the lazier one, unless two people are exactly the same. There is much same sex abuse, but because that abuse cannot be put down to sex, it will not be put down to sex. A man driving his male partner mental by not doing anything around the house won't be categorised as fitting in with an 'expectation'. Nor will a woman driving her female partner mad by spending the rent on drink or drugs, but these things are still rife. Just because an expectation hasn't been formed doesn't mean that the thing isn't happening. The expectation is a self fulfilling prophecy. Men are 'just being men' if they're shit at housework, but what are women being when they're shit at housework? There's no word for that because there's no expectation. But it happens all the time.

I’ve been asking myself the same, reflecting on my relationship choices and the stories I read on MN. It’s conditioning: by society, family, culture, religion. I look back on my younger self and can’t believe how low I set the bar. ‘Thank you for choosing me’ might have been a good summary of how I approached the relationships. Unbelievably sad. I’ve finally broken the pattern but it’s been hard work.
Fortunately, my daughter is different and has healthy approach to relationships. I hope the new generation of women will learn how to value themselves first.

Absolutely.

By nature or nurture or both, most women want kids.

They're aware of their time restrictions.

They settle rather than keep looking for years for the exception to the rule (?) that is a truly good man who wants to settle with them.

Assisted donor conception is only recent and I have yet to meet one woman who has done it.

A lot of women don't feel they can afford to be single Mums either.

I have read plenty of threads in here written by women in same sex relationships where one is a female equivalent of a cocklodger@wompwomp I'd call them a muffsquatter.

Maybe it's the fall-out from two World Wars when able-bodied and employable men became hard to find. Until relatively recently, women had to overwhelmingly look to men to bring in a decent wage and put the bread on the table: women were appallingly badly paid and caring responsibilities in the form of children or tending sick relatives put paid to outside employment.

After the First World War there were too many spare spinsters and far too few surviving men. By the time that generation recovered yet another war came along wiping out yet another tide of young men.

Hence, women (being conditioned to marry - spinsterdom was financially dire) would accept any old rubbish that was still able to bring home a wage. And, boy, there was some absolute rubbish!

And that's why I believe many woman will still take on unreformed cavemen - we have been programmed,since time began and due to circumstances, to put up with this kind of thing: and shaking off such an entrenched mindset will take a long, long time......

It's shocking how much it happens. My parents had a traditional marriage where DF had a good job, DM worked PT and did everything else. Turns out she was also being financially abused, his money was his and hers was hers to clothe her, run a car etc. It all came out in the divorce in their 50s/60s.

No way would I live with a man like that, I would work FT as well to earn for the family and he would share the chores and finances. It's great, feels like a real partnership and we have our own downtime.

There's an interesting movement happening in South Korea, which now has the lowest birth rate in the world. It's called th 4 B Movement where young women are simply refusing to have anything to do with men.
https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html

That is a really interesting article. Thanks for posting

I think it’s just thousands of years of conditioning. Women need men to survive thinking. I think the first part of being able to make informed decisions is to be financially independent. This should be taught in schools. I still hear friends in their late 40’s and 50’s whose only ambition is to go part-time. Why is that? You don’t often hear men talking like that.

So many people are afraid to be single.

Too many go straight from living at home, to living with a partner and think they cannot cope alone.

I have friends and family who will get with literally anyone because their relationship has ended.

I also know many people who are unhappy but will make sure to line up an OM/OW before having the guts to leave.

It makes me so sad how many women have no respect for themselves.

I have tried to drill it into my DDs head that it’s important to learn to live alone and be financially independent before moving in with a partner.

No good ever comes with having to be with someone, as can be seen every day on this site.

Thank you so much for all the replies. This is such a deep seated issue. I am finding the replies interesting and also sad but there are some more hopeful ones too!

I am not sure a low bar is a useful image. Otherwise, the "nice guys", who have a job, are average looking, would put their partner first, would be right to be confused as to why no-one is interested in them.

It is more about what is important.

I also think there is a patriarchal shame which is disappearing. It used to be there was pride in being hard done by, which also gave the impression it was normal.

Some women would rather be in a bad relationship than on their own. They seem to be frightened of being single so accept being with a knob or someone abusive.

Most young single people I know have set the bar way to high in what they expect in a relationship , women wanting 6ft hunks who earn 6 figures and men wanting young athletic fertile women who look like Victoria secret models. Both need to give there heads a wobble and come back to reality and date normal people in similar situations to themselves

Same. Dad and brother very abusive. Wouldn’t tolerate it for me and my daughters.

A lot have low self-esteem after having been told for years that they are worthless and nobody else will want them. Many are trapped because they are financially reliant or in fear of what might happen if they try and leave. And some, of course, will have grown up in a family with a father who was like that, so they know no different.

There are many reasons, and I would never judge someone for feeling unable to leave an abusive relationship. A long time ago, I was one of them.