Why do so many women set the bar so low?

[Anonymouseey]

I’m feeling so sad having just read the latest ‘he does nothing but please don’t suggest I leave him thread’. Why? Why do women want so little for themselves? Every day there’s a thread like it, half the time the woman seems to pay for everything too so the man brings nothing!

I am in a same sex marriage. We have our issues but everything is 50:50 there is no doubt about that. When I had a child free weekend with friends my first thought is ‘right we’d better work out when my wife gets the equivalent for herself’.

So what’s the reason? Is it self esteem? Is it fear of being single? I do have slightly more understanding when there is financial reliance on the relationship because that must be scary but in the cases where the man doesn’t even pay it just makes zero sense to me.

Yes, perhaps, although for me women looking down on other women is the bigger betrayal, I hope this changes.

I see a lot of discussion about how it's actually quite difficult for men, as they have lost their place as provider etc, and if women don't need them then why would they want to be in a relationship etc, and whenever I read that stuff it confirms to me that to a lot of people, a romantic partner is there to fill a role. There is a spot open for a job as my significant other, who can I get to fill it. Which is so, so sad to me - because it's meant to be a team, isn't it. You find someone you really like, you join up and make a team, and you figure out how you're going to play together, and you work through the wins and the losses, and ultimately you want the best for each other because you enjoy them as your teammate.

The fact that some men have taken 'women don't NEED you any more' as something that challenges their perception of themselves is so, so interesting, in terms of how insidious the patriarchal model of 'provider' and 'masculinity' are, because why would you want to be with someone whose with you because they need you? Isn't the goal that someone's with you because they want you?
Why aren't men relieved? Because the model of 'provider' has been successfully marketed as 'the hard work' while the woman gets to do the 'easy bit of staying at home with the kids and look pretty'. We all know that anything traditionally women's work (care work etc) is undervalued in terms of money, even though its still hard work.
Women have learnt to provide and do all the 'male' tasks, but men seem incredibly daunted at the prospect of taking on the 'female' tasks, even though women are 'doing it all', is it a lack of confidence they can do it, or a lack of interest, a little petulance that they now have higher expectations?

Men don't like being told 'that's great, but you actually need to do it all' because all the reasons women need to do 'everything' to 'have it all' like financial and personal independence, men already had.
And controversially, I don't really have any sympathy for men who are struggling with knowing their 'place', because I've yet to see an explanation of this that doesn't boil down to: I'm expected to be emotionally available, learn how to clean and parent, and that's annoying because those things require effort and that's time taken away from me putting myself first. Any lack of confidence in their ability to do those tasks, which I would have sympathy for, is wiped put by the fact the men struggling with it are always totally capable of researching and learning their hobbies and interests, but somehow stumped at looking up how to go about relationship issues, domestic chores, parenting? I'm not buying it. Yes, it must be disappointing to find out you have what you consider 'additional' expectations placed on your, but seeing as those additional expectations are ones that will make your partner, and/or your children's lives better, then why is the response one of irritability? Or sadness? Is it because we teach men to think that they need a wife for status among other men, for sex, for company, and not as a equal partner that they desire as an individual? Such an interesting topic.

@Foxblue, Sorry, I am a man. I am writing in the context on not having your perspective.
I know men and women who cannot cook. We are not a culinary nation and not being able to cook is pretty common, it seems there is still a stigma where women will still claim to cook and men will happily acknowledge they cannot cook. Equally, to put responsibility on women for relationship failure is taboo.
For the old fashioned man role it is the same, if someone is a self appointed scientist, sport or world affairs expert, it is almost certainly a man. And this might be getting worse, a generation ago I was chatting with a philosophy prof and mentioned I was lucky as no-one would bore me in molecular microbiology is their ignorant theories. That was only a generation ago.

I do not recognise much of what you write from my own experience, which is likely the limitiation of my own experience. It all seems very alien. I once had a girlfriend who had a job, helped with housework and we could talk issues through. I very quickly proposed as that was special, certainly not a run of the mill expectation.

👏👏

I left and divorced 2 selfish and abusive husbands and can honestly say I've never actually had a relationship that was equal and happy. I'm single by choice now, after a 4 year relationship with someone who put me last in every way. This is why I really can't be bothered, I'm quite happy on my own.

OMG this is perfect!

Men don't want women to be equal in splitting jobs at home, childcare and time for hobbies, they'll say they do but in reality they don't. I think a lot of it is men don't actually want children but do because they don't want/ can't be botherd to find a new partner and seen as most women do want children you would just be stuck in the loop anyway.

@Andyls

they'll say they do but in reality they don't

In your reality they don't. And if you've never seen otherwise, you'll be convinced that that's all that exists. But other people have seen otherwise, and to deny that is to be a bit dim. It's also to assume that all women in relationships with men are allowing gross unfairness in their relationship. Which is a bit shit to women, really. Disrespectful.

We're a long way from split chores at home been the norm.

Men just aren't as bothered so have less motivation.

@Watchkeys, I think there is pressure on men and women to fit into expectations.
When I helped run a rugby league team, the number of men eager to get involved in the week would disappear by Saturday morning when getting hurt seemed more real.
The real difference I see in Scandinavia are men more free not to pretend live up to masculine diktats and women more free not to pretend to live up feminine diktats. In both my serious relationships with Scandinavian women, they would say I was a better cook and better around the house, not something that I have ever heard from an anglo-saxon partner!

@Andyls

You're speaking as if you know the world, and how it all works. You're speaking in general terms; 'things are like this' and 'things are like that'

I'm not saying that we all have equally split households. I'm saying that there are plenty of them. There are also plenty like the ones in your experience, but those are not the only types of household, not by a long way. It's like saying 'Parents will say they don't abuse their children, but they do'; it's simply not a generalisation that anybody can make, and it's damaging. Sure, it's true, in many instances, but making declarations that 'That's how it is' just reveal the poor experiences of the person who says it.

I've lived with three men in my life not counting my son or my dad.

My parents worked fairly co-operatively. Eg one cooked the other washed up. My mum did more but she was a 'housewife' and we were at school and that was the choice they made and could afford.

My exh and I did equal shares of household chores. His dad did the majority when he was growing up due to his parents work patterns.

My partner does equal, if not more, housework because his work hours facilitate, it and, in our house, it's me that doesn't see mess.

My son lives with his male housemate. Their flat is spotless and they share chores equally based upon work schedules. My son's previous two flatmates were female and the chores were also evenly split.

I've got friends whose husbands do equal share of chores and others where the woman does more and others where the man does more. All based on work schedules and are flexible when necessary.

I personally don't know any couples under 70 where the expectation is that the woman will do more except for a couple where she doesn't work at all and the kids are teens and he works long hours and thats how they divided it. Or where the man is a sexist arsehole in other ways too. But then, the women in those relationships aren't really any better because they have also subscribed to many other gendered expectations.

But the vast majority of people I know have balanced relationships in this respect.

Indeed. Another one that mystifies me is the 'my husband is a high earner i only make X'. Among the couples I know, earnings tend to be equal. Perhaps because around here you can't go part time at daycare, you have to pay for the full week.

There’s always a trade off… I am seeing someone who is a million time better at household stuff than me (I’m messy and disorganised) - cleaning, washing, cooking etc. BUT he suffers deep insecurity and has explosive moods. We are trying to work through it, he’s quite emotionally aware and open, but it’s a bit scary in a way it wouldn’t be with another woman, if that makes sense.

I think it’s hard to know when to stay and work at it and to cut your losses and leave

@GreyCarpet, as a man, your experience matches mine. Including house-shares, I have shared houses with many more men and women.
The cleanest houses were one I shared with men, but I think that was largely because they were clean tidy men who did not feel stigmatised by cleaning up in a house they shared with a man.

I also lived in Belgium and the USA. In Belgium, the division of labour was really shocking. Men were acting like doing housework was a nice favour. Women were genuinely surprised that I kept my flat clean without a maid, and I remember something close to shock when I prepared a quick meal cleaning up as I went.
In the USA, I have also had women assume I had a maid as my flat was clean and tidy. Certainly not an assumption made in the UK.

My SIL posted on social media the other day that her job in life is to make sure her family is happy. She never does anything for herself and it never crosses her mind to do so…BUT she suffers anxiety and is on medication. I wonder is if she would feel better if she stood down from this role a little and made herself happy a bit also. They have a very role oriented relationship although they are early 30s. He is the provider and she has never worked and stays home with the 2 kids. I haven’t said but if she perhaps works a little or did an hobby and got adult conversation she might feel lifted. As it it she’s been home what 10 years already.

@Makeitstop9 you mean she's never worked in her life?

@HelloDenise I think 6 months before falling pregnant and that’s been it.

I was trying to say that people seem to slot into roles. She doesn’t want to work so she kind of has to accept the role of SAHM and all that this entails. The kids are both at school 5 days a week so she has a lot of spare time. She can’t moan and complete he doesn’t do housework and he does none of it. We accept roles I feel in relationships because we get something out of it. If she complained about the housework I’m pretty sure he would tell her to get a job and he will then help at home. It doesn’t work for me because I wouldn’t like this power balance. It feels like her life is in his hands really. 50/50 makes an equal balance in a relationship.

I don't think anyone is saying that women feel they need a man to meet every requirement on a long list. Compromise is of course necessary. Most women are realistic.

There's a difference between compromise and accepting harmful behaviour.

I think the 'you need to compromise' line is reeled out too much. It had been drummed into me, and I accepted problematic behaviour (which I now realize was abusive) in my husband before we married.

People are not predestined to relate to their partner in a certain way just due to how they've seen their parents interact. People have responsibility for their own actions.

How on earth does he think it's all perfect?

I'm sorry you've had to deal with all this.

He thinks it’s perfect as I ‘turned a blind eye’. I actually said I wanted him to stop and for us to try so we could have the lovely family life that I thought we both wanted. I did try, very hard. He didn’t (superficially it looked like he was making an effort). Now I’ve raised the bar but I don’t think I will trust a man ever again. My first husband was having an affair and his partner was pregnant whilst I was having his daughter nearly 24 years ago. Her half sister is a couple of months younger than her. I think I must have always set the bar so low.

@Nylla - of course people have their own responsibility for what they do. But I do think there is something to be said for the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It's easier really to not even have an unstable father as my ex had as an issue. You want your children to have easy lives; it's a sign to think twice. It's very hard for someone to surmount this stuff, though ultimately we all have our own responsibility, it's partly why abuse carries on. I would also avoid men with stories of an abusive background too - the risk is too great imo