Terrified to face up to marriage problems

[Seaside1234]

Paralysed with fear to finally put my foot down about my husband's behaviour. I'm so conflict-averse it's ridiculous, but I don't want to go on like this.

Married 17 years, children 15 and 11. He's always kind of done what he wants and I've always avoided conflict - I earn more in a more stable job, but have always done more housework and childcare too. Long history of crippling depression on his part which eventually got treated. He had an affair about 6 years ago, I found out, we decided to stay together and went through marriage counselling where we addressed some of our issues. We didn't keep that level of communication up (he's as conflict averse as I am), he stopped being willing to have harder conversations and I was too scared to push that.

His work disappeared overnight in Covid and hasn't come back to the same extent. I have been supporting us almost entirely now for about 4 years, I guess. He hasn't contributed to mortgage or main bills for at least 2 years. He's always liked a drink, but that has spiralled to a significant problem over the last 18 months or so. He's now drinking, including going out drinking, most nights in the week. So spending significant amounts of money on booze while not supporting his family. He gets up late every day, and while he seems to be working a bit, it doesn't seem like much to me.

In all of this, I have completely gone off him and fallen out of love with him. We haven't had sex in well over a year (my choice, but he hasn't addressed it at all). We're essentially separated but sleeping in the same bed and I'm paying for everything. I think I want to separate, and I've reached the point where I think it might be best for our kids too.

I was diagnosed with high-functioning autism a few years ago and find it very difficult to start a conversation which will be very hard. We are both hugely averse to any conflict - we never argue, and the thought of getting angry with him makes me feel physically sick, probably as a hangover from how I was parented. I plan to ask if he'll consider going back to counselling as a way to have difficult conversations in a managed environment. But what do I do if he says no? I'm completely stuck and would appreciate any thoughts from people who might know where I'm coming from.

You don't have to have any conflict. You tell him what you want. He tells you if he'll do it. If not, you tell him it's over. It's not a discussion.

MN can be misleading, people are almost competing to be more hard done to. IRL, most wives would have left already.
May I ask if you are very afraid of being on your own?
@Watchkeys seems very astute. Sometimes it is the fear of conflict that can create it. You want to be loved and respected and this is a measure of it.

The prospect of carrying the financial burden and managing the household while your DH is spending your money on alcohol is horrific and beyond what most people would tolerate. This is not what marriage should be. It sounds like you don't want to be with him anymore, and quite rightly. I'll add that it is probably unhealthy for your children to witness this dynamic. I can't see counselling helping here, since your DH doesn't want to change. And he has no impetus to change, because you are supporting his lazy lifestyle.

There doesn't need to be an argument. You simply tell him it's over. I am generally conflict averse, so I understand the fear in starting these conversations. But I also know the longer you leave it, the worse than anxiety becomes.

Perhaps it would be worth "getting your ducks in a row" first eg speaking to a solicitor about divorce, making sure you have the relevant documents and considering the home situation eg asking him to move out etc before you speak to him so you know exactly how to proceed.

@Sweden99 no, I love the idea of being on my own. But I can't face the wave of negative emotion that's coming my way. I'm fairly sure he will tell me all the reasons I'm wrong, and I know I'll find it hard to work out if he's right or not. I just want more than this.

If you can't face the negative emotion, tell him you don't want to hear it. If he won't talk to you in a clear and straightforward way about how he feels, there's no point talking at all. I understand he might be upset, but it's up to him to deal with that, not you.

You say your bit. In an email, if you think he's going to try to manipulate you. Tell him what you need, and ask him if he can give it to you. How can he give you a wave of negative emotion about that? It's a question. And then if he can't do it, you don't need to listen to his negative emotion, because you can tell him he's your ex, and walk away.

What if he says no?

well if you want to split up and divorce, he doesn’t get a choice. Tell him your unhappy and its the end of the road for you. You want to split up. See a solicitor for an initial appt, you can fill in the divorce online £600.

@Watchkeys thank you. The more I think about this the more ashamed I am of my thinking, but it really doesn't feel like I have the right to leave him. He presumably thinks his behaviour is fine, I don't. Do I have the right to do this to my kids based just on what I think? What if there's something I'm not appreciating properly, and I'm wrong? I think that's what I'm really worried about.

What does 'wrong' mean? Wrong according to what?

@Watchkeys I'm quite black and white in my thinking. It does seem to me that I could be 'wrong' - I think what I mean by that is what would result in the best outcome for our children, or what most people would consider ok if they had all the relevant information. But it's quite hard to quantify. I'm not sure I'm justified in separating from him just because I don't like what he does, it feels like it has to affect more than just me.

Actually, you've really made me think about that. Thank you.

You can't have an alcoholic around your kids, staying and pretending like you're OK with it. It's so dysfunctional. It'll teach your children this shit is normal and we should put up with it.

That affects more than you.

Breaking up doesn't have to be a mutual agreement. If you want to end it, end it. His opinion on that doesn't matter because they are YOUR feelings. And your feelings are perfectly valid fyi.

One person can end a relationship for any reason they want. You don't have to prove your reasons are valid. Hell, you don't even need to tell him the reasons why (especially because he obviously knows why). Just 'this isn't working for me anymore, let's divorce'. 'Because I want to' is reason enough. But 'because you're a drunk amd you don't contribute and I'm not willing to raise our kids thinking that is normal for one minute longer' is fine too.

Sometimes life has to have conflict. So you can grow and change. So you can recognise what doesn't work for you. So there can be closure.

Rip the plaster off.

Your DH might find separation difficult. You are finding his behaviour difficult. Do you want to live with this difficulty for the rest of your life in order to spare him difficulty? Do you want your children to have the difficult experience of an alcoholic father and an unhappy mother, just to spare his feelings?

He doesn’t matter more than you. He doesn’t matter more than your children.

The best thing to do for your children is demonstrate that if you're not happy in a relationship, you leave. This will stand them in much better stead than staying unhappy for their whole childhood. Relationship breakdowns cause upheaval, and it's not fun, but be the one who shows them that it's not a life-ruining tragedy, and they'll be able to leave their own unhappy relationships when they have them.

Demonstrate to them what you want them to do for themselves: would you like either of them to stay in an unhappy, non-communicative relationship with someone who spends the household income on drink?

@Pinkbonbon love the plaster analogy, going to bear that in mind, thank you!

I'm just beginning to realise how much I was brought up to not make a fuss. Tolerate everything. I need to figure out how to do this for my kids' sake. But that just makes me think, who am I to say he's not a good enough father? However obvious that looks on paper!

I think being THE mother of his kids puts you in a very strong position indeed to recognise and judge exactly what kind of father he is.

Yes to realising the brainwashing to "be kind". Raise your kids to realise we do not tolerate being treated like crap. So they break the cycle instead of continuing and ending up with...sorry but, a loser like him.

Show them you are worth more than this and that women can leave and reshape their destinies.

His parenting skills are unrelated to the relationship between the two of you. Lots of children have good parents that separated for whatever reason.

Having your DC live with a man who is drinking too much is not good either. The best lesson you can give them is that they deserve a partner who respects them and behaves decently. They’re not seeing that at the moment, unfortunately.

@Seaside1234 On what planet would someone rebuke you for thinking he’s not a good enough father, with all the information you’ve given?

I’ve been in and left two abusive relationships and read up on this for years: at our core, women give men the benefit-of-the-doubt and don’t validate themselves enough to go “enough is enough.”

If YOU don’t like the way things are, that’s enough.

Your DP doesn’t “look good on paper” and there’s nothing you’re missing.

if you find it hard to express your needs maybe look up “non violent communication” techniques which have a formula of phrasing things. For example, “When X happens, I feel X; I need XY, would you be willing to XYZ… etc”

To be fair, the planet is Planet Mumsnet, where women have remarkably low expectations compared with real life.
There is wise input on here and it can be hard to realise how much you can expect of a partner.

Asked DH, via text, if he would put outside time to listen and talk to me, preferably in formal marriage counselling. Told him I'd considered separation but didn't want to not have tried everything. His reply - he has no idea what my problem is, he's asked me to go to things with him several times and I've said no [he thinks the problem is we don't do things/spend time together. I have no desire to spend time with him and don't have the money to do it.], he has work to do and finished sarcastically that is 'great timing'. I feel physically sick and overwhelmed with guilt. Am I overreacting? Should I be making more of an effort? Is this just all in my imagination? I can't tell any more. He clearly doesn't think anything major is wrong

@Seaside1234

1. Your husband does what he wants without considering family responsibilities.
2. He's been out of work for years
3. His drinking has become a problem and its affecting everyone's finances.
4. Even though you earn more, you're handling all the financial and household responsibilities, too
5. He cheated in the past
6. He won't have proper talks
7. He sleeps in late and is not putting in much effort.
8. He's now minimising all of this and telling you you're overreacting.

Again, how are you being unreasonable to say enough is enough? What more effort could you possibly make? He's actually using "DARVO" tactics on you - Deny (but I'm looking for a job/but I'll stop drinking etc) Attack (stop nagging/stop getting at me/you're not prefect yourself etc) and reverse 'victim and offender' (You don't understand/I've been so stressed/depressed...etc) roles.

Sorry if I was a bit blunt in my previous reply, I have also been in toxic rubbish relationships but now, many years out, I see things so much more clearly! The crux of this is permission and boundaries; no one (apart from us on MN) is going to come along and say "What! Seaside1234! That's dreadful behaviour from DP! Of course you need to leave now!"

Only YOU can set the boundary and draw the line. That also means you have the POWER to take action and go nope, not standing for this anymore. Do it for you and your DC. Many people get out, and a lot do it with help from here.

@BrightNewLife thank you, but also, oh crap. Things are worse than I think they are, aren't they? I have been assuming he's still got the desire to make things better and the capacity for taking responsibility. But now I think maybe not.

One thing my awful relationships taught me is to look at actions.

Not words, not promises, not persuasive spiels, not grand promises of change, not attacks, not spreadsheets outlining the chores they promise to do, not lists on the fridge, not cute apologies and text messages of how they’ll do better, not “oh you just need to ask me and I’ll help”, just actions.

Words are cheap - I realized that late in life!

Could you look at it another way? If someone told you of a marriage where things were as they are in your marriage, and asked you what to do, what would you say?

I think you have borne all the difficultly and taken all the responsibility here. Your husband likes that, of course he does-that’s why he isn’t amenable to discussion. Talking will be him trying to make you seem unreasonable because he knows you well and he will invite you to question yourself. You can refuse! You can go to counselling yourself, to see what you want and to think about how to talk to him. But the bottom line is this: you can do what you think is best FOR YOU. You can. It’s allowed.

It’s not good for your kids to have a supposed role model who is not providing for his family, lazy and is a functioning alcoholic.

I would start divorce proceedings now and just give him the papers to be honest, there's no point prolonging it.