Terrified to face up to marriage problems

[Seaside1234]

Paralysed with fear to finally put my foot down about my husband's behaviour. I'm so conflict-averse it's ridiculous, but I don't want to go on like this.

Married 17 years, children 15 and 11. He's always kind of done what he wants and I've always avoided conflict - I earn more in a more stable job, but have always done more housework and childcare too. Long history of crippling depression on his part which eventually got treated. He had an affair about 6 years ago, I found out, we decided to stay together and went through marriage counselling where we addressed some of our issues. We didn't keep that level of communication up (he's as conflict averse as I am), he stopped being willing to have harder conversations and I was too scared to push that.

His work disappeared overnight in Covid and hasn't come back to the same extent. I have been supporting us almost entirely now for about 4 years, I guess. He hasn't contributed to mortgage or main bills for at least 2 years. He's always liked a drink, but that has spiralled to a significant problem over the last 18 months or so. He's now drinking, including going out drinking, most nights in the week. So spending significant amounts of money on booze while not supporting his family. He gets up late every day, and while he seems to be working a bit, it doesn't seem like much to me.

In all of this, I have completely gone off him and fallen out of love with him. We haven't had sex in well over a year (my choice, but he hasn't addressed it at all). We're essentially separated but sleeping in the same bed and I'm paying for everything. I think I want to separate, and I've reached the point where I think it might be best for our kids too.

I was diagnosed with high-functioning autism a few years ago and find it very difficult to start a conversation which will be very hard. We are both hugely averse to any conflict - we never argue, and the thought of getting angry with him makes me feel physically sick, probably as a hangover from how I was parented. I plan to ask if he'll consider going back to counselling as a way to have difficult conversations in a managed environment. But what do I do if he says no? I'm completely stuck and would appreciate any thoughts from people who might know where I'm coming from.

It will also vindicate a previous narrative from him that I'm just an angry person
When people say you need to find your anger, they don't mean that you should shout at your husband. They mean that you should feel a sense of outrage at the way he is treating you. Then coolly, calmly organise a divorce. He doesn't need to see how angry you feel at all.

You don't have to get angry. I'm not sure why people say that. Anger could be a useful tool for you, here, but it's a very long way from being the only one.

If you tell him that you want to separate because you no longer want to spend time with him, what will happen?

It seems like you need him to agree with you, and you're sure that he won't. But it's fine if he doesn't agree with you, because he's not in charge. Why are you so concerned that he sees things from your point of view? It doesn't sound like he's ever going to, so why not save yourself from an impossible task, and leave anyway? What are the actual, practical matters that stop you? All of your reasoning is about who is right or wrong, but that's like arguing that you should eat broccoli even if you hate it, because you can't prove that you're 'right' to not like it. Not wanting to be with him is your preference. Do you actually need to prove that he's abusive, or can you just 'not like him very much anymore', and reach the same goal of not being in a relationship with him?

Why does it matter to you that your husband thinks you are wrong? You are not happy. You know this - he can't deny it and say 'oh, you're wrong, you're happy really.' You know this is not the case.

And simply being unhappy is a perfectly valid reason to end a marriage. There is no wrong or right, only subjective feelings. Your husband cannot negate your feelings of unhappiness or being abused. He just can't. They are your feelings, they are valid and so is your desire to end the marriage.

Just to echo the very sensible advice for matters who have righty pointed out your need neither his agreement or permission.

OP, I am a bit like you. I was brought up to put everyone else first, and taught that my feelings didn't matter. Consequently I stayed in a relationship I didn't want to be in for 12 years because I simply couldn't do something that someone else didn't want - I was actually frightened of it.

One day someone said to me "you do know that you have the right to be happy too, don't you?" and it was a revelation to me.

I still put everyone else first on autopilot/by default, but sometimes I think about what that person said and try to adjust my thinking.

So OP, you also have the right to be happy.

Don't engage with him telling you you're wrong. He has no business telling you how you should feel. The fact is that you have had enough. You would be withing your right to leave for any reason whatsoever, even seemingly trivial ones. Your reasons are not trivial, though and they don't need to be up for debate.

You have the ick, to coin a trite but perfectly apt phrase. You feel no physical attraction for him and your love for him has been severely eroded by his behaviour.

That is enough. He cannot tell you that you are wrong about feeling like this.

To second @Charlingspont

So OP, you also have the right to be happy

The life you want to lead is based on a feeling. Just a feeling. If you had your own desert island, cocktails on tap, no work, perfect weather, the perfect body, millions of pounds etc, none of it would matter if you didn't feel happy. Equally, you could live in a squalid flat, only have enough money for just about enough food, be hunting high and low for a job, and it might be raining, but if you were in a good mood... who cares?

Life isn't about what you 'should' like or how you 'should' feel. Find situations in which you feel happy, and put yourself there. If you find a situation in which you don't feel happy, remove yourself. And that's it. I'm happy down at my allotment, in wellies, and covered in mud. I'm happy when I'm out running. Nobody has to agree or approve or feel the same. And it's the same for you: you're happy when he's not there. And you are the one you have a responsibility to look after.

Of course it's scary. he dominates & can talk you into backing down, or
countering any reason you may have.
But it doesn't need to be a conversation. It can be a statement. You don't need to justify or explain.
You can say. I am done. I am not carrying you anymore. You are a drunk.
The children deserve better, I deserve better. The paperwork is on its way.
EXIT.
It needs saying before he starts drinking.
You can follow with, "Its not up for discussion".

I was also raised to be a pleaser and had regular conversations with my ExH telling him that I was at the end of my rope due to xyz, and we needed to begin proceedings to end the marriage. He would nod and agree and then the next time I mentioned it deny all knowledge of the conversation.

It is not reccomended to enter into joint counselling if there is any abuse going on, however, if you want to use a specificcouple of sessions with a therapist in order to say what you need to say, ie the marriage is over, and have it witnessed in order for you to be able to move on through the divorce process, that's what I did and it worked for me.

It was almost as though having someone there sitting and making notes on what I was saying made it real and although he did deny and twist things down the line it enabled me to get the ball rolling so by that point it didn't affect the outcome.

He doesn't need to agree to a divorce. Nobody else is going to come in with a clip board and tell you it's now bad enough, that what you're feeling is real, that you've suffered enough and you can leave.

You get to decide. You just need to step through the hoops and lose the belief that in order to do something you need his permission.

@Mix56 I like this, may steal it wholesale, thank you! Except for the 'no discussion' bit - got to be honest, if someone said that to me I don't think it would be fair. However this goes down, I have to come out knowing I've tried to do the right thing as much as possible.

You can use the counselling session to give him your statement.

Yes, but the right thing by who? This is where you're creating conflict for yourself. There isn't an overall 'right thing'. What's right for him isn't right for you. What's right for you isn't right for him. What's right for you and him isn't right for the kids. What's right for the kids might not be right for him. Or you.

Who decides on which 'right' to pick?

You are looking for external validation. You are looking for the 'best' way to do this, as if there is an invigilator, external from the situation, who can judge you to have 'done a good job', or 'been fair' or 'made the right decisions'. There is no external judge. There is no 'best way'. There's no such thing as 'fair'. You have to make decisions based on what will work best for you, and those dependent on you, and actively disregard what anybody else tells you about what's right or wrong (unless they have a professional qualification or you're doing something illegal, in which case there is a judge external to the situation)

If you keep 'trying to do the right thing' you will not be able to do what you need to do, because what you think is 'the right thing' for you and the kids isn't what he thinks is the right thing. And as difficult as it may be to accept, he is entitled to his opinion. So you have to decide: Are you going to live your life according to what he thinks is right, or according to what you think is right? You can't have both.

Yes. Maybe say.
We've been here before. Its too late for discussion.
I dont know what your job is, but you are financing the whole family. So I'm guessing you have a responsible job.
In your work place you are capable & respected. This is your stance.
He is Not your boss.
Basically stand tall.
Your life will blossom once you get this one hard declaration out. Then move on it.
Before, make sure he cannot empty your bank account, change all passwords. Remove or copy all precious documents

Love this. Did it have the effect she needed? I hope she's doing better now.

Thank you all. I am listening, and challenging some of my own thoughts. In particular, I've spent time trying to feel angry, and it's definitely in there somewhere, even if it's scary. I've realised how much time I spend thinking about him, and that that time should be spent thinking about what's best for me and my children. Having it clearly laid out that he's unlikely to end up agreeing with me and that's ok is helpful; I need to change my expectations here.

In particular, I've been assuming that there's some valid explanation for his behaviour that I've been overlooking. But maybe there isn't. Maybe he's just behaving really poorly. Maybe, possibly, he isn't a very nice person, at least just now. It all makes me very sad; he wasn't always like this, and I did love him.

@Mix56 yes, hilariously I'm a doctor, a hospital consultant and the regional expert in my subspeciality. Although I have struggled with serious imposter syndrome with that as well over the years. But you make a good point!

In particular, I've been assuming that there's some valid explanation for his behaviour that I've been overlooking

This is the thing at the heart of it. This is the thing that makes 'you feeling bad about the way he treats you' into something that's your fault, and gets him off the hook. It makes you into someone who is failing to find a solution, rather than allowing him to simply be what he is: someone who doesn't make you happy.

It helped me to remove blame. He's not doing anything illegal, so who is anybody to say that he's 'wrong'? He's absolutely allowed to live the way he lives, and that's absolutely up to him. But what he doesn't get to do is choose anybody else's lifestyle. So, in the same way, if you don't want to live with a drinker who manages money poorly, then you are absolutely allowed to live that way, and that's absolutely up to you.

When you look at it like this, you are free, because there's no criticism against him, so he can't argue that you're wrong when you say he's x or y or z. Because you're not saying that he's anything. You're saying that he drinks a certain amount in a certain pattern, he behaves in a particular way, and that's completely his prerogative. And you don't want to be around it.

Exactly. For example,Maybe spending him spending your money on drinking is OK. But you dont like it. & don't don't want to live that way.
Its not going on a couple of dinners that you pay for that is going to restore the love & respect.
You could say the all time classic.
"We have changed/we have grown apart"
In reality you are both in limbo. he is unhappy too, but depends sponges on you. He doesn't want to have to fend for himself work.
Its a un/comfortable half life. Full of disdain & discontent

Oh, to the question "But what do I do if he says no?". He can't. He can make it incredibly long, drawn out & unpleasant, but divorce can happen whether he makes it hard or not.

Also I skipped over the "last" affair, what do you think goes on in the pub every night ? he's playing the lad obviously.

It seems like you're doing a lot of circular overthinking to try and get it "right" and not much feeling. You're searching for the valid explanation for his behaviour, so that you can fix it. Well, unfortunately, you don't have that power. You're clearly an intelligent and accomplished woman professionally, and it can be difficult as someone who's capable and in control to accept that actually, this has fuck all to do with you really, he was who is before you came along and he will continue to choose his own behaviour long after you're gone.

The reason doesn't matter, what you need to focus on is whether this is what you want out of a partner, a relationship, and a life. Are you the best mother you can be, are you showing your children how to deal with life and what it throws at you? If not, you have every right to choose something different. No he won't necessarily like it, yes, he will have to suck it up because we are all responsible for our own choices and the consequences. You're not his inanimate safety raft.

My friend was very clear about what she wanted to achieve from the counselling sessions.

The marriage had no future and her DH wasn't listening to her because he didn't want the hassle of getting divorced. He was the one who had it all his own way. He was quite happy with the situation. She wasn't.

He minimised her feelings and refused to hear that she wanted out of the marriage.

By stating her facts in front of a third party, she felt heard.

He still behaved like an arsehole but then again a leopard never changes its spots, right?

I cant see any point in counseling. Isn't counseling supposed to attempt to save the marriage?
In thus case neither party wants to save anything, other than money & "face"
He has clearly said he wants out
OP knows he's a lying cheating bastard.

@Mix56

Isn't counseling supposed to attempt to save the marriage

No, it's an attempt to reach a consensus. Which could be to split up. Common misconception that it's meant to be about keeping couples together.

Some really good advice from posters here, you deserve to be happy.