Terrified to face up to marriage problems

[Seaside1234]

Paralysed with fear to finally put my foot down about my husband's behaviour. I'm so conflict-averse it's ridiculous, but I don't want to go on like this.

Married 17 years, children 15 and 11. He's always kind of done what he wants and I've always avoided conflict - I earn more in a more stable job, but have always done more housework and childcare too. Long history of crippling depression on his part which eventually got treated. He had an affair about 6 years ago, I found out, we decided to stay together and went through marriage counselling where we addressed some of our issues. We didn't keep that level of communication up (he's as conflict averse as I am), he stopped being willing to have harder conversations and I was too scared to push that.

His work disappeared overnight in Covid and hasn't come back to the same extent. I have been supporting us almost entirely now for about 4 years, I guess. He hasn't contributed to mortgage or main bills for at least 2 years. He's always liked a drink, but that has spiralled to a significant problem over the last 18 months or so. He's now drinking, including going out drinking, most nights in the week. So spending significant amounts of money on booze while not supporting his family. He gets up late every day, and while he seems to be working a bit, it doesn't seem like much to me.

In all of this, I have completely gone off him and fallen out of love with him. We haven't had sex in well over a year (my choice, but he hasn't addressed it at all). We're essentially separated but sleeping in the same bed and I'm paying for everything. I think I want to separate, and I've reached the point where I think it might be best for our kids too.

I was diagnosed with high-functioning autism a few years ago and find it very difficult to start a conversation which will be very hard. We are both hugely averse to any conflict - we never argue, and the thought of getting angry with him makes me feel physically sick, probably as a hangover from how I was parented. I plan to ask if he'll consider going back to counselling as a way to have difficult conversations in a managed environment. But what do I do if he says no? I'm completely stuck and would appreciate any thoughts from people who might know where I'm coming from.

Thank you all for replying. I wish I was brave enough to just say I want out, but I'm not. I haven't even said there's a problem with his drinking or that he's not pulling his weight. I don't have it in me. He'll tell me all the reasons I'm wrong, and I can't even imagine just telling him I want to separate. It's one of the reasons I was hoping he'd agree to go back to counselling, so I could say everything with someone else there to make it possible. I was brave-ish today, tomorrow I'll have to decide to be brave again and take another step forward.

I am sorry op it looks like you are having a tough time with your husband . I totally appreciate that you are finding it very difficult to confront the issues in your marriage . It is so easy for us all to be in denial in those situations and just plod along .

It may be difficult on the short term but this is something that you do need to do for both yourself and your children .

Are you able to get some support in real life from a friend / family member or even counselling to get your side across and put your feelings / viewpoint to your husband .
Would it help to put what the issues are in an email to your husband / get someone to support you doing this .

Even if he is trying to conceal his drinking from your children it is likely that they will possibly know or suspect already . Even if they don't it is unlikely that his drinking problem will improve and will only worsen and have an even greater impact on you and your children .

Could you try and break down what you have to do into chunks rather than being overwhelmed with doing everything ? A start for that could be to arrange individual counselling for yourself if your husband is refusing to go to joint counselling. Depending on where you work some larger employers will have their own counselling services available . I hope you get things sorted out for you and your children

I had a miserable first marriage and have a very happy second marriage.
The most valuable thing relationship counseling for the first marriage did was show me that the the problems were not my fault. This was after I joined MN (as a man) for advice and was brutally called out as abusive.
I had thought that I was the main one responsible for making the marriage work. That was toxic masculinity in my case so not the same as for you. But I think you might benefit from either your marriage being helped or the clarity that you can do no more and will not be losing anything valuable worth sacrificing your life and happiness for.

You don't have to be 'right' about anything to leave him. You are unhappy in the marriage and have been for a long time. That is enough.

He can't tell you you're wrong if you talk about your feelings, can he? You don't have to make it about him. It's not about him. It's about whether you are getting what you want.

'I'm not happy' can't be met with 'Yes you are', can it?

Why are your feelings such a low priority for you? Do you feel that anybody who could claim to be 'doing life right' is a compatible partner for you?

@Watchkeys I grew up being told my feelings weren't real/important and to never make a fuss about anything, so I know that yes, people will tell you your feelings aren't real or that you're overreacting, which is I think what will happen here.

He has agreed to go to marriage counselling, and I'm waiting on an appointment. I've been tremendously helped by the posts here over the last day or so, especially by having the DARVO pattern pointed out. When he says he doesn't know what my problem is, I don't have to start spelling it out to him - how can he possibly not know that what he's doing is wrong? I know it's generally not advised to go into counselling where there is active addiction or potential abuse, but I really would benefit from having another person there to enable me to put my side. I'm also going in with the perspective that I would prefer to separate.

who am I to say he's not a good enough father?
You're not saying that he isn't good enough for everyone; you're saying that he's a huge disappointment to you. You are the world's leading expert in how you feel.

I really would benefit from having another person there to enable me to put my side
Hm, but this person may also enable your dp to put his side forward, and he may very well paint a very different picture to her.

Is this just all in my imagination? I can't tell any more.
Classic sign of gaslighting/mind games (i.e. abuse).

how can he possibly not know that what he's doing is wrong?
He can achieve this by carefully burying his head in the sand. If you don't want to know or understand something, it's achievable.

Is this just all in my imagination

As a matter of interest, do you have a pattern of doing this? I mean, do you have several people on the go, generally, that you view to be abusing you?

Or is it just him, and perhaps a partner or two in the past? Is it just partners you feel might be abusive?

I would reduce the amount of money he had access to, so it's not spent on drink.

Go and see a solicitor or sit down with a friend and get them to write down all the reasons you want a divorce and then serve him the papers.

You don't need to explain

@Watchkeys it has literally just dawned on me in the last 24 hours that his behaviour might be considered abusive. I'm still not convinced of it. I do have a long history of not trusting my own feelings and assuming I must be wrong.

Do not enter into joint counselling with him; he will likely try and manipulate the counsellor so the sessions will be a complete waste of time and effort. If counselling is to be considered here you need to go on your own. He knows how you feel and he does not care.

You've had a lifetime of your parents telling you that you and your feelings do not matter; your childhood set you up into marrying such a man. Do not further show your children such a rubbish example of a relationship for them to potentially emulate themselves. They know on some level that things are not good between you and dad and perhaps wonder why you and he are still together at all.

@Needanewnamebeingwatched our finances are completely separate, I have no idea how much money he does or doesn't have, and I don't have access to it. There's no joint money that he has access to. Thankfully.

Yes, I get that. I was asking about whether you have a history of finding people abusive.

I'm asking because it may well single him out. Because you don't generally have the misconception that people are going about abusing you. It's not a pattern. It might be a pattern in your choice of partner, but you don't generally think people are abusing you, do you? Your friends? Your colleagues? Your children? Other contemporaries? The bloke behind the counter in Sainsbury's?

My point is that you don't make up that people are abusive to you, so there's something about his behaviour that doesn't sit right with you, and that's not because you're somehow 'faulty'.

@AttilaTheMeerkat then I don't know what to do. He doesn't know how I feel, I haven't got up the courage to tell him - that he's drinking too much and not prioritising supporting his family, that I'm supporting everyone financially and practically and that I don't think that's ok any more. His line is that the problem is we don't spend any time together or do stuff together. I have no desire to spend time with him, or spend money I can't afford on doing stuff with him. i fear that if i tell him why I'm unhappy he will both dismiss it and refuse to engage any further, so counselling feels like the only chance i have to get it out.

@Watchkeys I see where you're coming from, but I'm still not sure this could be considered abusive, that I'm not just massively blowing things up in my head. I'm sure I will be cast as the killjoy wife for resenting him going for a few pints when I don't want to go out and do anything fun. Fact is, I hate most social situations, and used to cope with that by drinking too much as well. I've more or less stopped drinking in the last couple of years, and have no desire to do force myself to do social things that make me profoundly uncomfortable.

Did you have many/any other relationships before him?
I was with my exh a similar amount of time and he was my first proper relationship. Neither of my parents offered an example of a good relationship. That lack of comparison made it hard for me to work out what was going on. We broke up 10 years ago and since then I've had relationships with 2 other men. The last one in particular has been enlightening. Even when there is an issue of some kind, we can talk about it without conflict, nastiness or blaming.

You are expecting conflict, negative emotions, anger and blaming, and you're lining up your arguments, trying to make them watertight and getting a professional to help you present them as if you were in court. It's taking you years to get up the courage. This alone shows that your relationship is not equal, respectful; that it is abusive.

I will be cast as the killjoy wife for resenting him going for a few pints
Let him paint this picture. Let him roll in it. He can be as wrong as he likes.

@80s but what if he's right? I don't think he is, but it's just a matter of opinion.

If your view is "just a matter of opinion", what is his view?

@80s I mean it's just a matter of opinion who's right. It might not be me.

He clearly doesn't think anything major is wrong

Have you considered that it very much suits him to at least pretend that he thinks everything is ok? Because then he doesn't have to change any of his behaviour does he? He gets to carry on letting you shoulder all the responsibility while he gets to drink to his hearts content and work as little as possible!

I think you need to find your anger at how he's treating you (and DC) and use that anger to give you the strength you need to push for a separation. Also agree with PP's that counselling/therapy for just you would be far more beneficial than couples counselling, you need to build your confidence/resolve so you can tell him yourself without needing a third party who may, or may not, back you up.

I mean that "she is a resentful killjoy" is just an opinion. Not something that you could prove objectively and thus not something that can be either right or wrong.

@Janetsmug I've been trying to get angry, and I can't, it's just too frightening for me. I was heavily conditioned in childhood that anger was not allowed and despite everything I can't get past it. I tried counselling by myself, recently, twice - can't get past it. It will also vindicate a previous narrative from him that I'm just an angry person (when drinking, a lot of emotions used to get out that don't now I've sobered up).

"i fear that if i tell him why I'm unhappy he will both dismiss it and refuse to engage any further, so counselling feels like the only chance i have to get it out."

He is already dismissing and otherwise refusing to engage with you now. All he cares about is his own self and where the next drink is going to come from.

He is unlikely to listen to you in a counselling session and besides which joint counselling is not recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship. You're going to have to be the one to end this sham of a relationship; he won't do anything to see his otherwise cushy life with you end.

How do you think your children see things in your household?. Its not the sanctuary it should be for them at all. For them it's more akin to a warzone where their dad has embarked on his own private based war with you. They are certainly not going to thank you for staying with him.

Getting to the root of why anger is too frightening for you to at all countenance (and that is all to do with your childhood; your parents did you a lot of emotional harm) is a way forward as is finding your anger.

I would also contact NAPAC about your childhood if you have not already done this.

I have a friend who went to Relate with her then husband. Her opening statement was:

"I want to separate from my husband but he is not listening to me. He says all the problems are in my head. I am here in the hope of finding a way to communicate so that we can divorce with as little conflict as possible."

Perhaps a similar approach might work for you.