Is this the script? Handhold please

[Whatachliche]

I can't believe I'm typing this - after 25 years my HB wants to move out.

When he left for a recent work trip, we were both set to work on our relationship with a therapist. after his return, he has a new gym routine, bought new underwear and has decided he is not feeling emotionally connected to me anymore and he is too 'confused' to know what he wants.

This is the f* script right?

there have been struggles like loss and illness and an unhealthy communication style from his side but we just started couples therapy to work on our relationship and turn things around. now this.

Do I entertain his quest for space or do I believe the signs of the script and just start divorce? I don't want to look through his phone, I think I can't deal with the truth. I rather walk away without knowing if that makes sense, or is that just the fear of no point of return?

I no longer have dreams about my ex, but I remember them from years ago.

They were so vivid and so cruel. I would wake up and believe he was there in the bed, next to me, not having rejected me.

Eventually, they stopped.

Interesting to hear dreams like that seem to be a quite normal part of the process... They make me feel so confused. on some days I'm clear in thinking he is a narcissist and I'm lucky to be rid of him. but after a dream that reminds me of the good times I feel back in the fog, confused and remodelling the relationship better than it was. somehow reading other threads here helps. I can't be sure my ExH was awful when I think about him (maybe I was the problem all along, this little voice is always there) but when I read others stories I find it crystal clear that their H is the issue. one thread on MN brought up a memory, I was never quite allowed to bring up DIY and flat admin things that needed doing. Like cutting the hedge could only be done on a weekend (he is self employed, flexible hours) and not if it rained 2 days before, and only if the wether is nice, but not too nice, that would be a waste of a sunny day, and not on Sundays because of the neighbours. I couldn't bring up any DIY needs before he had eaten (can't you even let me eat) or during dinner (this is ruining my meal) or after (i just ate, can I never relax) or during the day (bc work obviously). so I'm slowly working through this emotional mess whilst I'm waiting for the solicitors to finalise everyone the flat.

Jeez @Whatachliche were we married to the same man?

All that sounds terribly familiar. Even down to the alleged indigestion.

Mind you, mine went off with another man.......... so there, the similarities end.

no surprise your advice has been so on point! I am sorry you had to go through this too.

would you say your ex was a (covert) narcissist too? how did you dig yourself out of the self doubt and fog?

I had many months of therapy and did some searching self-analysis. The therapy was with an NHS psychiatrist. My church minister also gave me counselling.

And eventually, I was lucky enough to have a new marriage, to a "normal" man.

I've been happily married to him (and he's a man who is not a self-obsessed, faithless POS) for 25 years now.

I'm 68. The children of my first marriage have struggled. Ex doesn't even talk to one of them, and the other has recently moved to live close to me (and she chose to do so).

We're 600 miles apart. Me and the Ex, I mean. Before my DD moved here, her father tried to guilt-trip her into moving into his house. He burst into tears and tried a lot of emotional blackmail on her.

She has refused to give him her new address. I don't blame her. He never wanted our son's address, and we think he's written him out of his will.

But actually - we're all happy now. My second husband has been a superb stepfather.

I'm so sorry to read your story OP. I'm in a similar place myself and it feels so so hard

I can't be sure my ExH was awful when I think about him

He was shagging several other women behind your back OP - of course he's awful. That's not even taking all the gaslighting, manipulation and other shit into consideration. You're doubting yourself bc he's done a number on you psychologically - completely normal.

Would you take him back now if he begged? I think you'd be crazy to. He's a faithless, lying toad.

Hi op read a book called 'it's not you' by dr ramani it really helped me

you make good points. I think what I'm trying to explore is how my head can still feel so confused after everything he has done. yes, years and years of gaslighting and manipulation would have done a number on my sanity and I shall cut myself some slack there. but still, i find it rather unexplainable how much power he still holds over me, the way he manages to have demands and the way he makes me doubt myself. I don't doubt myself in my senior role at work, or my friendships or any other areas in my life. when it comes to our interactions, I'm like a blind idiot in an upside down world. without wanting to sound arrogant, I'm known for having my shit together. the weakness and confusion I feel when it comes to him is frankly gobsmacking. Whilst I'm making sure he will never know about any of this, I'm still mind-blown by it.

thank you for this, all book and podcast recommendations are gratefully received.

@TheShellBeach thanks for sharing your story - I love how things have worked out for you. Finding a normal partner feels like such a very unrealistic hope, so I am happy to hear it worked for others.

I think it’s because we are brainwashed from birth to think we are ‘meant to have a man’ and if we don’t or -God forbid! actually decide to leave one that we are somehow defective as women. I am in the process of divorcing too and occasionally find myself thinking of him fondly- this from a relationship that was I was profoundly depressed in and lost the will to live. I’ve found it helpful to do an ‘Ick List’ and re-read it when I have a wobble it has 52 items and counting 😂

Glad to see you continue to do well, OP.

I think it can be useful to remember that even the shittiest person has their good points. And even in the very worst marriages, there can still be good memories - in between awful times.

And I think that can be confusing when we look back on things. Because often there's a tendency to remember their good points and good memories as fact, but then that makes us doubt the bad stuff.

Having the odd good trait or some positive memories doesn't make up for a whole world of shit. And it doesn't mean that things weren't as bad as you think.

It's OK to feel sad about not having any more of those good days, and it's OK to miss the nice bits about the person. But you can feel all of that while also recognising that their bad traits were so much worse. Understanding that the occasional good memory isn't worth being married to someone who lied to you repeatedly and was detrimental to your mental health.

Acknowledging that you have some good memories/he had some nice traits doesn't mean that you aren't a million times better off without him. Having mixed memories and feelings is normal but don't forget to focus on the many awful things he did that you now know about, and the low-level shit that you put up with.

When you understand and accept that even the world's shittiest person can sometimes seem nice, it can help you to stop doubting yourself.

I do think that part of this is down to the fact that we struggle to put value on ourselves as women - we're taught by society that our feelings don't matter. So of course, when your feelings are what you're relying on, it can be hard to give them the power they deserve. I always find that stepping aside and imagining these things being done to my DD really helps - I find an anger and an outrage that I simply struggle to conjure up when it comes to caring for myself. That allows me to see things through a true lens.

@Whatachliche

I think what I'm trying to explore is how my head can still feel so confused after everything...years and years of gaslighting and manipulation...".

Look at it like this. Let's say you drive to work with someone. Every day you drive the same route with 'friend'. Years and years you've driven together and 'friend' has always said ' Don't forget to turn right on Main St up ahead'. Suddenly, one day 'friend' shouts "Turn left on River Road, TURN LEFT ON RIVER ROAD!!!!!". You make the turn ok. You ask 'friend' why she changed the route and you don't get a straight answer or are told 'I didn't tell you that'. Of course you're rattled and confused. And of course it will take time to figure out what the hell happened and to really know that you're better off without such a friend.

Give yourself time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Hope everything is finalised before the year's end. I'm so sorry you went through all this and admire your resilience OP.

I've had dealings with close family who are narcissistic and it's head-wrecking.

You're doing very well - more power to you 💐

@Whatachliche I hope you're doing ok & that everything is now legally finalised.

Sending positive thoughts your way! 💐

I'm in the final stretch. the flat will be mine end of next week, solicitors have set a final date. This is a huge achievement for me and I cannot believe it all worked out. so many night I lay awake worrying about all the hurdles I had to jump to make this happen. and now it's done.

the only thing left is to confront him.

Party at yours!!!!!!
So I repeat again what I said in November.....

"Ex
Today I received notification that the house in now in my name, legally and financially.
So now I am able to tell you the following facts.
On X date, I discovered your affair with Jane Brown (has she left her husband yet?). On Y date I discovered your affairs with Sarah Green and Julie White, both of whom you finished with in Z month.
I have known about this since you announced that you needed "space" back in February. Why didnt I say anything? Because I needed to make sure that I got what I wanted, and now I have, because you thought yourself too clever to get caught. You were wrong.

Now I am sure that you will use this to "prove" that I am such an awful person that it justifies you having a two year affair with Jane and other shorter affairs at the same time as her, but it doesnt. Its just proves that you are not as clever as you think you are.

Your former in laws, neighbours, friends and aquaintances also know as frankly your behaviour is not a secret I need to keep."

Edited to amend my frankly awful first draft of that!

This with bells on

Proud of you whatacliche

So glad to know you've secured your flat. All yours, only yours and I know that was important to you.

As far as confronting him, all I can say is never put anything in writing. Say all you wish to say, but don't write it.

@Whatachliche , well done! You are nearly free of him. You have played the long game.

now, if it was me, I would have taken photos or screenshots of the messages from all the OW and got their numbers from his phone.

then, I would send screenshots of his messages to OW2 & OW3 to OW1 so that she breaks up with STBXH.

leave it long enough for them to be over. Then I would send messages between him and OW1 to OW1HB. Now he has the knowledge and power and can do with it what he sees fit.

and, if there were any chance of him getting back with OW2 & OW3, I would send them screenshots of his messages with the others.

scupper all his chances with all the OW he has lined up.

and never say a word to hi about what you know.

but I am vindictive like that.

i read through your whole thread. You have a lot more dignity and control than me. I’m glad to hear that you got through this and are rebuilding your life with peace.x

I've just read all your posts on this thread OP. I really am wishing you all the best and rooting for you. As for confronting him, I think I'd tell him you know about the affairs that there is no point him denying things and adding yet more lies to the many he has told over the years. But you had thought he would be more of a man and would own his behaviour.

Anyway, you've got what you wanted - the flat - and rid of him and now people you both know know all about his disgusting behaviour over the years.

Can I ask why not to put it in writing? I’m very sure you have reasons for the advice I’m just curious?
Also @Whatachliche I’ve been following from the start and wanted to congratulate you on making it through the utter shitshow you’ve been subjected to with such grace and dignity. Congratulations on your new home now that it’s just yours and only yours to make exactly how you’d like it. 💕

I'd agree with the advice to NOT put it in writing, instinct tells me it's a bad idea.

Also, if you want him to know that you know, rather than tell him yourself, have someone else verbally share the information with him.

OP shouldn't have any direct contact with him in future.