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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is this the script? Handhold please

995 replies

Whatachliche · 10/02/2024 21:37

I can't believe I'm typing this - after 25 years my HB wants to move out.

When he left for a recent work trip, we were both set to work on our relationship with a therapist. after his return, he has a new gym routine, bought new underwear and has decided he is not feeling emotionally connected to me anymore and he is too 'confused' to know what he wants.

This is the f* script right?

there have been struggles like loss and illness and an unhealthy communication style from his side but we just started couples therapy to work on our relationship and turn things around. now this.

Do I entertain his quest for space or do I believe the signs of the script and just start divorce? I don't want to look through his phone, I think I can't deal with the truth. I rather walk away without knowing if that makes sense, or is that just the fear of no point of return?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Thewookiemustgo · 25/01/2025 10:07

@Whatachliche you are a victim of abuse and need to reach out for whatever support you need.
Educate yourself on gaslighting and the mechanics of lying and narcissistic tendencies and you’ll realise that being capable of doing this to this level, even and especially when faced with indisputable facts, is indicative of a personality disorder and nothing to do with you.
He would have brought his disordered personality along with him to whoever he had married. A disordered personality doesn’t excuse what he did, many who do this are aware that the control mechanisms they use to their benefit are wrong and unethical, so they mask it with deception or denial that they are doing this when confronted. Add a dash of narcissism and entitlement and what you get is this:

lies,
minimisation,
exaggeration,
twisting of events and facts or outright denial, intimating that it’s you, your memory is poor, you ‘remembered it wrong’,
telling you that you overthink,
telling you you have jumped to conclusions,
you would say that wouldn’t you,
and often a grand finale of: you are crazy.

They can do it to somebody they love (although it doesn’t look like love to us) through wrestling with a deep internal fight between insecurity and grandiosity, driving them to try to control everything.
Life is unpredictable and other people have their own minds and wants and desires which don’t always match up with our own. Other people don’t always do what we want them to do. We’d like other people to do what we want them to but realise they have their own needs, those with narcissistic tendencies need other people to do what they want them to.
Life has rules and morals and ethics which can clash with their belief that they can do/ have what they want. A disordered personality will dial down their stress and anxiety around not being adored and obeyed by others by trying to control them so that they get the supply and security, obeisance and predictability they need.
The ‘how can somebody who loves me do this to me?” question arises because love to us means supporting and being loving and loyal. These people see love as a possession and an absolute right, no matter how they behave. They see others as either being useful or not useful, as validating their superiority or challenging it, as being in the way of the belief that they are so special that they can do/ have whatever they want, they think social norms and morals are for other lesser people, not them.
Don’t try to understand this from a normal perspective, you never will, because you don’t have a disordered personality and from what you have written I’d guess that he has.
Look up gaslighting and narcissistic abuse and coercive control and to a greater or lesser degree you’ll find your husband.
Don’t whatever you do turn this inwards and berate yourself for not seeing it or not realising, these people are often very clever, often they are high flyers who are also very clever at masking their behaviour and making you think it’s you, making you think it’s better to give in to keep the peace, making you think they’re right and somehow it was you who fucked up.
Apply the ‘rules’ around narcissistic and controlling behaviour to your “How could he..?” question and it makes sense. At present you can’t get your head round it because you are applying the normal ‘rules’ of how a normal, loving person would behave. It’s a big leap for a random on the internet like me to tell you he’s got narcissistic tendencies and a personality disorder but if he isn’t, from what you say about how you feel now and from what he is saying and doing, I’d bet real money that he’s on the spectrum of one.
Research this stuff and you’ll see that none of this, including not recognising his behaviour, was because you were stupid or gullible, it was because you were operating under one set of beliefs that you thought he shared, he was operating covertly under quite another set of rules and very skilled at masking it.
Take great care and reach out for help, this doesn’t go away on its own.

Whatachliche · 25/01/2025 10:27

Thewookiemustgo · 25/01/2025 10:07

@Whatachliche you are a victim of abuse and need to reach out for whatever support you need.
Educate yourself on gaslighting and the mechanics of lying and narcissistic tendencies and you’ll realise that being capable of doing this to this level, even and especially when faced with indisputable facts, is indicative of a personality disorder and nothing to do with you.
He would have brought his disordered personality along with him to whoever he had married. A disordered personality doesn’t excuse what he did, many who do this are aware that the control mechanisms they use to their benefit are wrong and unethical, so they mask it with deception or denial that they are doing this when confronted. Add a dash of narcissism and entitlement and what you get is this:

lies,
minimisation,
exaggeration,
twisting of events and facts or outright denial, intimating that it’s you, your memory is poor, you ‘remembered it wrong’,
telling you that you overthink,
telling you you have jumped to conclusions,
you would say that wouldn’t you,
and often a grand finale of: you are crazy.

They can do it to somebody they love (although it doesn’t look like love to us) through wrestling with a deep internal fight between insecurity and grandiosity, driving them to try to control everything.
Life is unpredictable and other people have their own minds and wants and desires which don’t always match up with our own. Other people don’t always do what we want them to do. We’d like other people to do what we want them to but realise they have their own needs, those with narcissistic tendencies need other people to do what they want them to.
Life has rules and morals and ethics which can clash with their belief that they can do/ have what they want. A disordered personality will dial down their stress and anxiety around not being adored and obeyed by others by trying to control them so that they get the supply and security, obeisance and predictability they need.
The ‘how can somebody who loves me do this to me?” question arises because love to us means supporting and being loving and loyal. These people see love as a possession and an absolute right, no matter how they behave. They see others as either being useful or not useful, as validating their superiority or challenging it, as being in the way of the belief that they are so special that they can do/ have whatever they want, they think social norms and morals are for other lesser people, not them.
Don’t try to understand this from a normal perspective, you never will, because you don’t have a disordered personality and from what you have written I’d guess that he has.
Look up gaslighting and narcissistic abuse and coercive control and to a greater or lesser degree you’ll find your husband.
Don’t whatever you do turn this inwards and berate yourself for not seeing it or not realising, these people are often very clever, often they are high flyers who are also very clever at masking their behaviour and making you think it’s you, making you think it’s better to give in to keep the peace, making you think they’re right and somehow it was you who fucked up.
Apply the ‘rules’ around narcissistic and controlling behaviour to your “How could he..?” question and it makes sense. At present you can’t get your head round it because you are applying the normal ‘rules’ of how a normal, loving person would behave. It’s a big leap for a random on the internet like me to tell you he’s got narcissistic tendencies and a personality disorder but if he isn’t, from what you say about how you feel now and from what he is saying and doing, I’d bet real money that he’s on the spectrum of one.
Research this stuff and you’ll see that none of this, including not recognising his behaviour, was because you were stupid or gullible, it was because you were operating under one set of beliefs that you thought he shared, he was operating covertly under quite another set of rules and very skilled at masking it.
Take great care and reach out for help, this doesn’t go away on its own.

I agree with everything you are saying. whilst knowing all this and having done all the research, in the same time there is still such a strong voice in the back of my head whispering that it all must be my fault, surely.

Whilst I know he messed with my head, I know he is abusive, I know I cant see him clearly yet, I know he has very likely a number if personality disorders - all of this knowledge lives in my head, in the cognitive area of me, and I do believe it.

The undercurrent, the deeper emotional layer, the animal brain in me believes still what he has put there for so long: confusion, not sure whats real, change of facts, information changing all the time, being wrong.

OP posts:
bigboykitty · 25/01/2025 10:44

Whatachliche · 25/01/2025 10:27

I agree with everything you are saying. whilst knowing all this and having done all the research, in the same time there is still such a strong voice in the back of my head whispering that it all must be my fault, surely.

Whilst I know he messed with my head, I know he is abusive, I know I cant see him clearly yet, I know he has very likely a number if personality disorders - all of this knowledge lives in my head, in the cognitive area of me, and I do believe it.

The undercurrent, the deeper emotional layer, the animal brain in me believes still what he has put there for so long: confusion, not sure whats real, change of facts, information changing all the time, being wrong.

This is trauma. It will take years to slowly unpick the self doubt and see him clearly. You've already come a very long way. Wishing you all the very best. Covert narcissists cause horrific damage. You sound lovely.

wizzywig · 25/01/2025 11:54

Op, your post earlier sounded as if you were suddenly scared of him.

Whatachliche · 25/01/2025 12:04

wizzywig · 25/01/2025 11:54

Op, your post earlier sounded as if you were suddenly scared of him.

I don't know, maybe - I can only describe it as a strong feeling to end the conversation as fast as possible and remove myself from the situation. It was the smoothness and effortlessness of his lies and denial, I felt I'm seeing his real self for the first time, and I now try to listen more to my instincts than I ever did before.
It could be that the situation reminded me of the thousands of situations in our time together when he gaslit me and I just wanted this feeling to stop.

OP posts:
Thewookiemustgo · 25/01/2025 12:48

@Whatachliche I’m so sorry, this is what trauma does to you. Please get some support with this, it’s still early days yet and the ‘I must have done something wrong’ is the echo of the way he trained you to think.
I doubt it will go away on its own, so have a think about which approach to take with getting some help. Take care of yourself X

taylorswift1989 · 25/01/2025 13:14

I feel for you, OP. It's a terrible shock to realise that reality is very different to what you thought it was. It's so hard to process, and it's scary. Take your time.

One word of warning: not everyone will understand. People who have not had this kind of experience don't usually get the depths of the betrayal and confusion and shock you're feeling. Confide in your friends but know that some will understand more than others.

FreeRider · 25/01/2025 14:37

I personally think it was good and healthy that you just wanted to end the conversation when he started with his lies. Because now there is no point, you don't have to be his 'audience' anymore and have no obligation to sit there and listen to his rubbish.

You've put yourself and your feelings first. Sod him, I'd try to make it the very last time you talk to him.

AcrossthePond55 · 25/01/2025 19:03

@Whatachliche

Well, it's done now. And despite how disorienting his responses were, you were mentally able to see and retain your truth. You say you worry your 'emotional being' won't ever be able to accept the reality. I say it will. If we give it time and really want it to, the head will always rule the heart. Counseling will help a lot!

You were very wise to listen to your head and terminate the conversation. See? You listened to your head, not your heart. Just continue on your path and you will get through this.

Whatachliche · 28/02/2025 11:25

It has been a bit over a year since i have started this thread. My whole life has changed and I am now in a space of calm. maybe not full blown happiness but I'm feeling a lot of calmness and gratitude for my friends, health and everything I am building for myself.

whilst I am better in putting boundaries up against him, he has now started to pester me for a last conversation to 'help us both to move on'. obviously I told him that is not needed and I had my closure when I found about his affair. Naturally I will neither give him my time nor indulge his wishes.
BUT I have such a strong inner feeling that I should, that I owe him that (wtf?!?!?!) that it is the decent thing to do. this shows me how strongly he has been brainwashing me. it shows how strong his manipulation has been. any thoughts how I can become mentally more free of him? how can I shed this last bit of power he has? besides the practical side of blocking his number now.

OP posts:
OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon · 28/02/2025 11:34

you owe him NOTHING !

I guess you have sorted out the property aspects now ? are you divorced yet ?

he only has power if you allow him to have power, you are stronger than that !

look at what YOU have achieved in this last year.

Acornsoup · 28/02/2025 11:44

Amazing that you are spotting the control yourself. There is power in that.

Minimum contact and get on with your wonderful life ❤️💪🏼🙏🏼

Imjustagirlintheworld · 28/02/2025 11:45

Gosh NO!! He is simply still trying to see if he has power over you now that you've moved on.

Block him. Block him. Block him.

Imjustagirlintheworld · 28/02/2025 11:52

any thoughts how I can become mentally more free of him?

That is simply going to take time, and probably therapy. I told you early on in the thread about a relationship I had with a covert narc that lasted only a few months. It's taken me about a year to get over it, such was the damage and confusion he caused and I still have "WTF" moments. It is perfectly natural that he is still in your head, this was your husband of many years whom you built your life around. I sometimes wish I had an ice cream scoop and could scoop out that part of my brain that has the memories and knowledge of what that man did to me, it's insidious how they mess with our heads - I get it.

But you are doing great and meeting with him/conversing with him will only set you back. He will control and dominate the conversation like you know he always does. He won't tell you what you want to here, why would he start being honest and admitting his faults now?

Please just block him, don't undo the good work you've done so far. The only way you'll ever be mentally free of this man is to have nothing to do with him and eventually time and your new status quo will mean he only pops up in your head occasionally and you'll think to yourself, as I do now, "what a damaged man he is" and feel something skin to pity.

Imjustagirlintheworld · 28/02/2025 11:52

*akin

Whatachliche · 28/02/2025 12:03

OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon · 28/02/2025 11:34

you owe him NOTHING !

I guess you have sorted out the property aspects now ? are you divorced yet ?

he only has power if you allow him to have power, you are stronger than that !

look at what YOU have achieved in this last year.

yes all legalities have been completed, there is no practical or legal reason to chat. my suspicion is he wants to launch his 'new girlfriend' who we all know is not very new at all.

OP posts:
OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon · 28/02/2025 12:06

As you have confirmed everything is finalised, block.

There is nothing he can say that you need to hear - except sorry.

he is not going to do that. and even if he did - too little too late !

block.

Whatachliche · 28/02/2025 12:08

Imjustagirlintheworld · 28/02/2025 11:52

any thoughts how I can become mentally more free of him?

That is simply going to take time, and probably therapy. I told you early on in the thread about a relationship I had with a covert narc that lasted only a few months. It's taken me about a year to get over it, such was the damage and confusion he caused and I still have "WTF" moments. It is perfectly natural that he is still in your head, this was your husband of many years whom you built your life around. I sometimes wish I had an ice cream scoop and could scoop out that part of my brain that has the memories and knowledge of what that man did to me, it's insidious how they mess with our heads - I get it.

But you are doing great and meeting with him/conversing with him will only set you back. He will control and dominate the conversation like you know he always does. He won't tell you what you want to here, why would he start being honest and admitting his faults now?

Please just block him, don't undo the good work you've done so far. The only way you'll ever be mentally free of this man is to have nothing to do with him and eventually time and your new status quo will mean he only pops up in your head occasionally and you'll think to yourself, as I do now, "what a damaged man he is" and feel something skin to pity.

I do remember your situation and there are so many parallels to mine. I really appreciate your view as I feel you have been where i am.

I am a practical person with both feet on the ground and I still cannot fathom how I allowed him to manipulate me to that level. I did simply not see it. at all.

I will not hear him out, I will not see him.

I'm impatient now and I don't want to rely on time or therapy, I just want those last ingrained instincts of needing to oblige him gone. maybe unrealistically so.

OP posts:
Thewookiemustgo · 28/02/2025 12:20

Glad to hear you’ve found a calm space for yourself and your life is moving forward, you’ve come a long way.
So, breathe a moment and consider the following:
If you feel you had closure before he asked for the conversation, what has actually changed that makes the conversation necessary now?
Ignoring his requests for closure, (he lost all rights to ask anything from you for his own welfare when he selfishly had his affair and so callously disregarded yours) what would you gain from the conversation, with regard to your own healing and for your own future peace of mind?
There is nothing ‘wrong’ with having the conversation, if it furthers your healing and wellbeing and heals the past to help your future.
However, if you feel that the only person who will benefit from this is him, then you owe him nothing.
You also have to consider his motives for wanting to talk to you, and that anything he says will be his version and no doubt edited, minimised and filtered to an eye-watering degree.
Also you might hear things that you can’t unhear, which will set you back and put things in your head that might not be true, which make you start questioning and revisiting the whole thing in your head again, which you do not deserve.
Put yourself first, if you think it might help then do it, if the thought of it makes you feel even the slightest bit anxious then don’t.
My lovely late mum used to use the quote, “When in doubt, do nothing”

Mum5net · 28/02/2025 12:23

I'd go back to the golden eagle metaphor.
Even a magnificent golden eagle enjoying the glorious countryside, flying free and strong, has to deal with the occasional human weirdo who wants to steal their eggs or set poisonous bait traps.

The clever eagle can see from above what they are up to and doesn't entertain these spineless scummy lowlife. She just shits on them from the sky, changes direction and gets back to her own business, soaring off to explore new and exciting places with her own tribe...

apostrophewoman · 28/02/2025 13:07

Hi OP
I've just read your thread in its entirety, mostly just your updates, so a full year of your life in a short time. I absolutely admire you, from the brutal honesty of your feelings and your desperate low times, and I'm so sorry you missed your 'moment'.

From your update today, I would say 'block him'. You don't need to hear anything else, you have your own truth and you're happy. From someone who had a year long relationship with someone similar to your ex, I know you will only hear his reasonings and lies and you know he just wants his last hurrah and this will be to blame you.

I wish you every luck and happiness in your future, you sound an amazingly strong woman, and you have come through a whole host of awful times and out the other side into what will be your revenge for his behaviour.
Take the win, live your life and don't let him in to do his last and worst.

Be the eagle, OP, and soar. Don't let him make you the rabbit.

Thelnebriati · 28/02/2025 13:07

Blocking him might be the most sensible idea. If he no longer feels like he had closure then he has been thinking about you and the relationship. There's no guarantee this would be the last talk, if he wont stop obsessing over things he might decide he needs another talk in the future. Best to nip it in the bud now.

Just be aware that many narcissists like to exit a relationship as the victim, as he had an affair he hasn't been able to do that, so goading you might be his goal. Or he might be trying to hoover you back in.

Chatterboxy · 28/02/2025 13:28

You have been an amazing woman throughout, now is the time to block him & live your best life, he certainly won’t be doing you any good with a final chat, it’ll be all about him & his sick way of having the last thread of control!
I wish you a lovely happy future full of beautiful new beginnings. xx

Mix56 · 28/02/2025 15:07

I expect he feels he didn't "win", because you walked away without histrionics & no visible regret, he feels like a popped balloon.
He thought he was getting one over on you, but there was no punching the air.
Don't entertain any meaningful chats or final goodbyes. Block.
If he's uncomfortable, Good !

jenny38 · 28/02/2025 15:28

I would say "there was plenty of time for conversations before this point, but mentally i don't feel i need any further closure, as the relationship is now firmly in the past for me. No need to reply to this "

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