What makes a "good man" to you?

[LorlieS]

I was just on another thread and poster said her husband was a "good man" because he earned enough for her to stay at home indefinitely.
Personally, I don't agree with this statement.
So, being entirely honest, what are your non-negotiables?

My list:
Kindness
Integrity
Honesty
Respect
A similar sense of humour to my own
Treating me as an equal
Being present for our family and children.

I'm sure there's more but for me, being wealthy doesn't feature.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers In what way do you mean?

If his word is bond, the rest falls nicely into place.

In our case it wasn't different but I understand what you mean.

I think a big issue is that so many partnerships don't bend or adapt. The mother takes a long maternity leave, she becomes the default parent because she's with baby more and she does more around the house because she's home more.

She goes back to work a year later and is still the default parent because baby will only settle for her, she goes part time so the childcare is still all of her responsibility and she still does most/everything around the house because she's at home more.

There's obviously exceptions but that's very much the common scenario.

This x1000. It is so important to have the tools and ability to be independent should something awful happen. So many women (heck, people) do not realise that circumstances can change overnight and you can find yourself without the ability to make money/do stuff round the house/cope with the day to day shit because you allowed someone else to do it all for you. I’m of course not saying you can’t divide responsibilities or be a SAHP if you want, but it’s much safer if you’ve already got your own career etc sorted as a potential safety net should you need it.

But surely seeking out men because they're good providers, and who crucially derive their self-worth from being good providers, causes that dynamic to an extent. The unspoken expectation is that the father will go out to bring home the bacon, and the mother will stay in to look after the domestic side.

That dynamic isn't the default among my parent friends. For some, yes, but most of my female friends wanted to maintain their careers and they wanted a partner who'd be supportive of that - both in and of itself and when it came to parental responsibilities.

Again it's the danger of talking in generalisations. Yes a certain dynamic has been the prevalent one, but that doesn't mean it's your fate. If you as an individual don't want that dynamic then it's possible to start chipping away at it. And one of those ways is to actively push back against the "men should provide, women should stay at home" stereotypes.

The unspoken expectation is that the father will go out to bring home the bacon, and the mother will stay in to look after the domestic side

Speak for yourself.

@Watchkeys I think that for some women there is definitely still that desire/expectation, absolutely.
But for others (such as myself) this is absolutely something we would not be comfortable with.

I think even women who are not happy to be dependent on a man,are still reluctant to have a man dependent on them?

@Getonnow Definitely. I don't expect to rely solely on my husband financially in just the same way as I wouldn't expect him to rely solely on me.

Must love dogs. Dogs must trust him.

Money won't hurt either.

And no mingers please.

Your dad sound like a great man indeed!

A "good" man can be either wealthy or earning very little. Goodness is to do with being kind, honest, not lazy, respectful, not a bigot etc.

Money is irrelevant. A good man will put their family first. I don't necessarily think this means that he'll agree for his partner to stay at home - a good man could instead call for his partner to be earning and financially supporting the family just as he is.

I agree with PP though - a good man isn't the same as someone who is a good partner. I do need humour, a similar political outlook to me, someone who's good in bed and someone who is successful in their career as well.

Kind
Honest
Humble
Unselfish
Family focused
Hard working

@LorlieS … My late dad and stepdad were/are good men, and part of being good for them is being able to provide for their family.

Why is it not considered a good thing to be able to do so, or at least contribute equally to family finances? Just wondering.

I appreciate the many good qualities you list in a man, but couldn’t deal with someone who is a drain on my resources (limited or unlimited).

Of course feeling responsible for your family is a good thing.

But the point is that in a capitalist society, how you earn a living, how much you earn, whether you keep earning and how all of this affects you is a bit more complicated, and completely detached from morality.

Most people's employment is dictated by their employers. Even if they're self-employed it's dictated by the whims of current events. Very frequently, our jobs require us to destroy our physical and/or mental health.

Is a good man still a good man if he burns out? Is he a good man if he sacrifices self-fulfilment to work 9 to 5 in a job he hates? Is he a good man if he doesn't fulfil what our society deems to be his earning potential - say, if he wants to dedicate himself to working for a charity rather than earning big bucks arms dealing or as an accountant betting tax evaders?

People can navigate all of that however feels right to them - my point is simply that earning money and moral goodness are utterly separate.

To be honest, it is so ingrained into us from birth that I think many people end up falling into the stereotypical roles and don't take much time to discuss expectations. It's almost just like the next stage after marriage and having a baby is either become the sole or largely financial provider if you're a man or if you're a woman, you go part time to take on more childcare responsibility.

I agree that it doesn't have to be your fate, it definitely isn't mine.

I agree so much with this. Women think they've made progress, but actually they're mich worse off. Now they get to do most of the domestic work, look after the kids and have a job. Patriarchy wins again.

@SouthLondonMum22 I totally agree. My husband earns a pretty low wage but he does a job he loves and I wouldn't want him to change it for anything!
He works in social care, supporting vulnerable adults. His role is varied obviously depending on who he's working with; he does things like getting the food shopping for someone who has a severe social phobia, supporting someone who has literacy difficulties to fill in application forms,
helping to tidy up a place with someone who has crippling depression, checking in on the phone to someone who has attempted to end their life recently; the list goes on. I think he's one of two men in his office of many!
I honestly could not be prouder of him.
To me his job turns him not just a good man, but a great one ♥️

@Nofilteritwonthelp So how do you suggest we as women challenge this?

Scratch the surface of "men should be providers" and there's always a shedload of regressive ideas waiting for you.

Women - so much worse off than when we couldn't work, couldn't be independent, were expected to be mothers and wives only, were shamed for our sexuality.

We don't have to do the domestic work or even have kids at all. We have agency over both of these things in our individual lives. Or at least - if that's the status quo and you're not happy with it, only you can actually change it on your behalf.

He sounds great.

One of my best male friends works for a refugee charity and the amount of time and energy he dedicates to making life worth living for some of the most vulnerable people on earth is amazing. It pays peanuts of course, but I don't believe the megarich arms dealer I once got cornered at in a work event is a better man just because he's provided a fancier life for his family.

It doesn't have to be that way though.

I work full time but the domestic work and childcare is completely shared, I wouldn't accept anything less.

Honesty
Reliability
Respectful
Morality

I don't care about "excitement", passion, etc - that's for teenagers. For adults you need someone you can rely on, who's not going to lie and let you down.

A woman doesn't have to put up with that, though, does she?

My OH does plenty of housework, childcare, etc. I "sussed" him out before we married that he'd be reliable enough to help with the household chores. Because he did that, when it came to thinking about children, I had confidence that he'd do what he promised, and that's how it's turned out.

Had he not done his fair share when we first married and bought a house, I'd not have had a child with them - I'd have kicked him into touch. If I'd had any concerns that he wouldn't have pulled his weight with the house, I'd never have married him and bought a house with him.

My first serious boyfriend was an unreliable chancer - I binned him very quickly once I saw his true self of being a lazy taker who promised the Earth and delivered nothing!

I agree with much of this, but I don’t believe earning money and moral goodness are mutually exclusive.

Not all men that provide for their families are burnt out, dealing arms or something else that makes them morally bankrupt; as most men are average earners. For different people providing also means different things. your provisions may require a husband doing one of these jobs, earning 6/7 figures, whereas I may be content with a husband earning £30k working for a charity, as that covers our needs.

There are always different levels and requirements, so I just wondered why it’s considered a less than good thing to have this on a list of ‘good qualities’.