Coping with Silent Treatment

[baffleddays]

When DP and I have a disagreement he often gets annoyed and shuts down the conversation, by refusing to talk, physically leaving the house, going to sleep etc. If he does leave when he returns he'll often be distant with me, give one word answers, stare at his phone etc. He says he just doesn't want to have to always talk things out, but I feel like I'm getting the silent treatment.

The problem is - I really struggle with the silent treatment. It feels so uncomfortable that often I end up being the one trying to offer olive branches, smooth things over etc. (even if I was the one raising a grievance at the start of it all) just to get the awkwardness to go away. If I do try to tolerate it rather than caving into it it still consumes my thoughts, stops me being able to concentrate on work etc. I often end up replaying the conversation in my mind and trying to work out how it all unravelled.

My worry is that I think I need to be able to tolerate the silence better to avoid the risk of it being used against me... so I was wondering if anybody has any good tips or suggestions?

Thank you all so much for your replies - the support I’ve had on this thread is genuinely amazing and I’m very grateful for all your thoughts and insights. I’m really glad to hear that it’s been helpful for you too @theansweris42. I’ve definitely found that writing down my reflections on here and thinking through the points that posters raise has been super helpful for thinking things through.

As long as you value your own views too, and what's right for you.
Thank you for that reminder… on the whats right for me bit particularly I definitely slip into bad habits of putting what others need ahead of myself.

It did get me wondering about whether, when DP walks off on a day out, that feels to them the same as a silent treatment feels to me?
Absolutely. Because it IS the silent treatment. It's withdrawing communication, affection and engagement.
This thought makes me feel awful for them as I know how horrible it feels on the times when DP has been angry and stormed off with me. I think with niece and nephew it hasn’t been clear to me that it’s a silent treatment because there’s normally something thats happened which is genuinely stressful… so DP walking away then looks like a potentially reasonable reaction. But reflecting on what I’ve learnt now about silent treatments, his walking away from niece / nephew is definitely more of an angry storming off or not wanting to be around them rather than a “time out”. And eventually when he’s ready he just returns as normal with nothing discussed or resolved. On the time we did discuss it he just said again that he has the “right” to walk away if things are getting too much and he “can’t win” if I complain about him walking off but also complain if he stays and tells them off. So the same situation and circular conversation I’ve had about silent treatments with myself basically!

As I’m typing these replies I’m starting to notice just how often DP says things about how he has the right to do x, or is allowed to feel y, etc. I think he has a definite focus about what he perceives to be “fairness”.

I think what you're talking about is the tone? Yes the tone, and the fact it feels like he’s making comparisons in which he sees himself as superior… he’s “not shallow” because he doesn’t worry about what he wears, he parks the “right way”, he gets ready to go out so much quicker than I do, he could do a job better than this other person does it etc

"he said something about being worn down over time and not having patience left to deal with the behavioural issues.."
By all means, at the end, you could say the exact same thing about his 'behavioural' issues 😀
That’s actually very true! And another reason me for me not to feel guilty if I cant handle the relationship anymore - as DP clearly doesn’t feel guilty and that’s in relation to a child’s behaviour! Thank you

@theansweris42 take care of yourself - I hope things get better

Op - I haven't read the whole thread, only your posts, so apologies if this has been said many times before... but relationships really shouldn't be this difficult!

I was married for a long time to someone who sounds similar to your dp. I ended up walking on eggshells around him, over-thinking everything and in a muddle because I just couldn't work out if I was being unreasonable or if he was... so stressful. We eventually split up and now I'm with a kind man who just wants me to be happy, and I feel the same way about him! There is no second-guessing or agonising over behaviour, we just discuss things in a calm and respectful way.

I think my ex thought it was far more important to be "right" as he saw it, rather than considerate and kind; he really didn't care about my feelings. Life without him feels like stepping out from under a dark cloud.

Be kind to yourself and leave this absolute emotional drain of a man.

This "I'm allowed to feel" argument is such a straw man. Of course you're allowed to feel. What's NOT okay is using your feelings as a justification to make other people feel shit.

Also, another ridiculous argument is "well either rI can tell them off or I can walk away. You're never happy". But those are NOT, in fact, the only two choices. You can calmly but firmly tell children off. Hell, you can even shout sometimes albeit it's not preferable. But we all KNOW the difference between someone telling us off in a perfectly normal way and someone using aggression or force to scare us. Including DC. Similarly, you can get a break, but do it in a way that is not making others uncomfortable. eg "I'm going to go and make a quick call I'll catch up with you".

He's using these "I have rights" and "there's no pleasing you" as a way to justify shitty behaviour.

Hey,

I hope you are doing ok OP. I found myself reading through your full thread as I am finding myself in a similar situation. I could have written a lot of what you've said, particularly the overthinking his behaviours, apologising when it's not your fault and the exhaustion. I'm currently getting the silent treatment for bringing up horrible comments he has said to me (which I have posted about on here myself too) and wondering if I'm the problem yet again. Usually I would be desperate to fix things but I am trying my hardest not to this time.

I can see you are thinking about counselling and I think it is a good idea however I would be careful he doesn't use this as a weapon to make you doubt yourself in future like mine has, ie You need to go back to counselling for X Y thing. I also think you come across as someone very level headed in your posts and dealing with this a lot better than I have as you are giving yourself time to think it through before taking any action.

But I can also see you trying to look for ways for things to work and seeing him improve for a few days gives you hope. I know they are not all the same but I have to say that I have been feeling like yourself for 15 months and any spell of him improving his behaviour has quickly reverted back to his controlling behaviour within a month or so when he thinks I'm back in my box. I know it's hard when everyone tells you to leave like it is very clear cut and it isn't easy even when you actually realise what their behaviour is.

So I guess my point in posting is just to say that I really understand where you are coming from and the emotional turmoil makes it so hard to make any decision. I hope that whatever decision you make helps you to find a happy life. Deep down I know I've got to leave and make it stick this time but that might not be how you are feeling after a few weeks of thinking about it all. I've ended things when I wasn't ready and came back apologising for it so it's good you are taking time to assess it. You'll only leave when you are ready and sure of it being the right decision and no one else can pressure you into that decision. 💐

Take comfort in the fact it is not you he is choosing to behave like this , his anger and you not complying and resulting silence is his problem not yours thr only person who can resolve it is him. And his needs trump yours. My mum is like this the silent treatment has been a recurring feature since I was a child eg being ignored for 2 days because she was annoyed I was sick ! I am in my 50s and have stopped caring she is currently on a 2 year stint of it unusually this time she told me she wasn’t going to be in touch for the foreseeable future so I left it the expectation is that I should apologise but I hevr t it’s her loss that’s 2 years of not seeing her only grandchildren

@Dogmum89 - Thank you so much for your message – I’m really sorry to hear that you’re in a similar situation and that you’ve been getting the silent treatment again too. You mentioned that deep down you know you need to leave the relationship, so I hope you get the support you need to be able to do that and to have lots of happiness in your future.

As you mentioned I’d say I’m at the stage of assessing things and trying to let
the emotions and confusion settle so I can make more clear decisions. With my
last relationship I went through something similar to what you described, where
I was the one who ended the relationship but then had so much self-doubt and
anxiety soon after that if it wasn’t for my family stopping me I probably would
have tried to get back together. Somehow the fact that he became verbally
abusive actually seemed to make me regret leaving more and want to get back
together more, which is a bit bizarre! So I think going through that experience
has made me feel like I need to be clear on my decision and what could lie
ahead before launching into a decision. I guess there has to be a balance with
not letting confusion drag on endlessly if there was no end in sight, but I do
feel like things are gradually getting more clear here.

Thank you for letting me know about things only getting better for a little while
before they slip back too – as I’ve definitely already seen some of that going
on here. It all makes for a confusing picture doesn’t it! I hope you get some
respite from the turmoil and confusion soon. 💐

@Arrivederla - Thank you for sharing your experience as everything you’ve posted resonates with me. I’m really glad to hear that you’re happy now.

I think my ex thought it was far more important to be
"right" as he saw it, rather than considerate and kind; he really
didn't care about my feelings.
This was a really interesting point as I definitely see in my DP that he is almost
obsessive about things being fair. That could be whether the way we handle our finances are fair, me not having the “last word” in a discussion as that’s not
fair, whether the discussion itself is “fair” if he doesn’t feel like talking…
there’s so many examples I could give, it’s definitely a running theme. It’s an
interesting perspective though to say that the fairness becomes more important than my feelings… as that feels true. I think he’d more worried about whether the content of what I was saying was “fair” than whether I was in floods of tears or not.

relationships really shouldn't be this difficult! – I’m starting to
realise this too, or at the very least am realising that if relationships are
this difficult it’d be better to be single! I think I’ve made a lot of
justifications until now about how my life being generally very busy and quite
difficult could mean that it’s the circumstances causing the difficulty rather
than the relationship itself… but I’m starting to see that even if that was
true we should at least be able to communicate.

@GingerIsBest - What's NOT okay is using your feelings as a justification to make other people feel shit.
I agree with you and think I’ve finally got my head round this bit – that feeling
stressed is not an excuse to behave in a way that upsets other people. I think
the bit which still ends up being confusing is when DP says but he doesn’t
understand why the way he’s behaving upsets me. That it doesn’t need to bother
me. And even if it does bother me then my need to talk is not more important
than his need to be quiet in that moment. That I’m being selfish by making it
about me, when he’s the one that’s upset or stressed… that’s the bit that still
ends up blowing my mind at the moment, having that doubt around whether I’m having unreasonable expectations of his behaviour and of what upsets me.

Also, another ridiculous argument is "well either rI can tell
them off or I can walk away. You're never happy". But those are NOT, in
fact, the only two choices
I wonder if I need to start recognising that, for him, he’s clearly telling me
they are his only options… anger, or silence (which is still anger). And I
guess then I would need to ask myself whether I want to be in a relationship
with someone who only has those 2 settings in response to stressful situations.

Similarly, you can get a break, but do it in a way that is not
making others uncomfortable. eg "I'm going to go and make a quick call
I'll catch up with you". I love this idea, that would be such a more pleasant thing to be around. It feels so alien to where we are now that I almost can’t imagine how that would be! It seems like right now he’s just not controlled enough in those stressful situations to handle things that gracefully.

@Shortbread49 – I’m so sorry to hear what you’ve been through with your mum and for such a long time too. Thank you for sharing your experience and as you said, it’s absolutely her loss.

I hope everybody has a lovely weekend💐

^Somehow the fact that he became verbally abusive actually seemed to make me regret leaving more and want to get back
together more, which is a bit bizarre!^

Did his abuse make you feel you'd done something wrong? Or was it intimidating? Im just wondering as you are innately aware of other people and slow to blame, quick to doubt yourself.

^This was a really interesting point as I definitely see in my DP that he is almost
obsessive about things being fair^

mm. Is he as obsessive about things being fair for other people too, for example his behaviour to you? Or is mostly about people being fair to him?

Now where have the italics gone?

The him not being upset by your tears comment sounds concerning. Your partner shouldn't be making you cry on a regular basis. It really doesn't sound as though he enhances your life. A previous abusive boyfriend seems to have made you think crying regularly is normal for most adults, it really isn't.

I wonder what is all this theoretical "Stress" of his , isn't it actually just him not getting what he wants?
Like not picking up his socks, not making an effort with a larny teenager, not wanting you to go out & enjoy any freedom, so wants to force a pick up time, or ETA, not wanting to be proved wrong in any conversation ?
Isn't his goal actually to dominate ? You can't even debate with him, it's his way. End of.

With regard to buying this car, it's all about forcing you into a joint commitment.
You need to emphasise that you don't want or need a joint car & he should very much be able to cover the cost as he is living Rent Free. & has been for 4 years.

Can you ever relax with him now? I just wondered, that now you are aware of the cycle of abuse & can see the different tactics he deploys, how you can relax? he interrupts your work, he resists requests for help picking up his own stuff, he constantly needy or deliberately creating an atmosphere of angst.

You said you were happy to get out & relax with friends.
Surely this would be your basic state of wellbeing with him gone?

So DP and I went to the christening I mentioned yesterday...

Earlier in the week we'd planned to travel separately as I was going to be taking nephew home after the party and DP had agreed he'd go to his mum's to sort her dog as she's away. But because of a last minute travel issue, we agreed that DP would come in the car with me and we'd all leave at 5pm as a time that worked for everybody - a bit later than DP originally wanted to go, a bit earlier than I was originally planning.

5pm arrives, I remind nephew that it's time to go... and he was having none of it. Wasn't listening, started shouting over me, saying he needed to do x first etc... was clearly starting to get himself very worked up (which happens sometimes unfortunately and can escalate into a meltdown). To me this behaviour isn't ideal, but he was a tired 6 year old and he has anxiety so it's not unexpected... it is what it is, we have to just deal with it and within 10-20 minutes it's normally all sorted and settled again (can last longer though, an hour has been known).

As nephew starts shouting and getting upset, I can hear that DP is also trying to talk to my nephew but within a few minutes DP is clearly getting agitated by the situation. He said to me "I'm going to have to go", so I said that's fine step outside if you need a breather. And he said "I need to leave, I told you I need to leave at 5pm latest, I'll have to go and come back for you". This is at 5 past 5. Presumably he then thought better of it as he did try again with nephew... but one minute later said again "I have to go otherwise this is going to get too much for me", "I'll come back for you". He was stressed out to the point that he hadn't said goodbye or thank you to anybody and was already heading towards the door so at this point I thought I'd rather just sort this out myself... gave him the keys, said don't worry about coming back, I'll get a lift as other people are leaving soon too. By 5:35 everything was calm and I was in a car on the way home.

Last night DP was being totally normal with me when he got home, asked if anybody was annoyed with him having left but other than that seemed pretty clueless to the impact he has on other people as he just said "I'd told you earlier in the day I'd be desperate to leave by 5pm" (which he had), "5pm would have been fine but I couldn't just keep staying there while it escalated, it wasn't fair on the dog who'd been locked in a kitchen for 6 hours by that point". On the other hand he's asked me about 4 times today if I'm okay and he's being nicer than usual... so maybe he is aware that his behaviour wasn't great.

I've got lots of thoughts going round my brain today:

1. This all played out in front of my family this time... my Mum saw it all and I could see how horrified and annoyed she was.
2. The fact that it happened in front of family makes me think maybe he really can't control it / cope with the stress, rather than doing it deliberately (not that that makes it better)
3. I don't think the position he puts me in is okay... The pressure in those moments of being stuck between a struggling child and a struggling adult is insane.
4. At other times, I think well it is stressful, maybe I can understand why he gets overwhelmed because we've had major meltdowns before that have lasted up to an hour so he probably didn't want to get stuck dealing with one of them, he did say he'd come back, didn't do any form of silence etc.
5. Overall though, regardless of the reasons why or justifications, I currently feel like I don't want to spend time with both nephew and DP at the same time anymore as I just can't deal with any more times being stuck in the middle, it's making me anxious!
6. I think I have to say to DP tonight that he learns to handle his stress right now or he leaves... I did think about asking him to go and stay with family now, but he's going to be home very soon and I'm not mentally there yet. I do want to make sure I don't get sucked into carrying on like nothing happened though. I suspect he'll say the usual stuff about he doesn't know why it bothers me so much, makes me anxious etc. as he isn't doing anything wrong by needing to leave? That it's him that's stressed, why am I making it about me etc. Even if I am in the wrong to feel anxious though, I can't change that that is the way I feel!

To answer some of the questions from previous posts (thank you)
Did his abuse make you feel you'd done something wrong? Or was it intimidating?
I think, looking back now, although I felt like splitting up was the right thing to do with ex-P, in my head I'd hoped the split could be amicable, that we could still be friends etc. I still cared for him, we'd been together a long time, and suddenly being faced with the fact that he had so much hatred toward me was awful emotionally. Some of the things he said were absolutely targeted at how I was in the wrong by leaving, by not trying again, by not answering questions he had of me if he asked where I'd been etc., by not caring what I was doing to him, how he had no money etc... definitely a lot of guilt. But also quite intimidating too - never in a physical way, just swearing and insults etc. We had to stay in contact while we sorted out practicalities and eventually when I got a solicitor involved and told him I had grounds for an injunction he started behaving himself.

I wonder what is all this theoretical "Stress" of his , isn't it actually just him not getting what he wants?
Like not picking up his socks, not making an effort with a larny teenager, not wanting you to go out & enjoy any freedom, so wants to force a pick up time, or ETA, not wanting to be proved wrong in any conversation ?
Isn't his goal actually to dominate ? You can't even debate with him, it's his way. End of.
This did get me thinking... as you're right that the stress is typically when something isn't going his way and the examples you gave are all true reflections of how that has presented... on the flip side with the example I gave of this weekend it does get me wondering whether he genuinely can't cope, as I can't imagine he would have wanted to lose face in that way in front of my family if it was all about dominating.

Can you ever relax with him now? I just wondered, that now you are aware of the cycle of abuse & can see the different tactics he deploys, how you can relax? he interrupts your work, he resists requests for help picking up his own stuff, he constantly needy or deliberately creating an atmosphere of angst.
You said you were happy to get out & relax with friends.
Surely this would be your basic state of wellbeing with him gone?
I feel like I'm at the stage where I'm starting to be more aware of the tactics but am struggling to 100% nail down in my mind that that's what's going on? I absolutely am struggling to relax at the moment though, I'm overthinking things a lot as I'm scared of making a mistake either way in terms of either tolerating too much or making the decision to leave and regretting it. I'm not overthinking in a productive way currently though, today I'm overthinking in a panicky way that's not going to get me anywhere so I think I need to calm myself down and try to focus on the facts and just being sensible.
I hope it would be my basic state of wellbeing to be calm and relaxed if we split, as I'm lucky to have fantastic friends and family. Which is probably the thing I need to start focusing more on.

With the nephew, Could your P not have just gone into another room? or said I'll just wait outside for 5 mins.

Doesn't this child have parents who were there?

Also, The reason why he was "normal" when you got home, is because he can feel you pulling away, its all part of the cycle of abuse.
They push you only so far, as the end game is not to lose you. But to control you & get their own way.

Hi @baffleddays It sounds like it was quite a stressful afternoon. I have a couple of thoughts on this.

The first is that we had all previously discussed whether or not he was likely to create some situation that would make this event stressful and unpleasant for you. And now, ta da, we find that is exactly what has happened. I want to say this upfront before my next comments because there's an interesting dynamic at play here which is that some of the stress is not necessarily unreasonable, but when you look at it as a pattern... suddenly it becomes clearer. But in my experience, this is pretty classic - you know that every event will lead to some trauma but, told in isolation, each event seems entirely reasonable Ito the behaviour and that just leads to more confusion.

So, from my perspective, I would say that agreeing to leave at 5, which was a time that was not ideal for either of you, was never a great solution in the first place. (put a pin here for a later comment below).

However, once that decision was taken, what did either or both of you do to make it so that it would be possible? eg, with a 6 year old, I'd probably tell them in advance that we have to leave at a set time because we have to get home to feed the dog. At 4:30 I'd probably give the child a heads up and then I'd give a 10 and 5 minute countdown. I'd also aim to start getting ready to go well before 5 if the 5pm on the dot departure was so important. Did any of this happen? Also, as HE is the one who was so insistent on leaving at 5pm, I would expect him to take the lead on this even if taking the lead means coming to you ahead of time to point out the you need to leave soon and suggesting yo all start getting yourselves ready to depart, proactively gathering stuff together etc.

Pinned later comment: is this one of the ways he managed to make it stressful? By manipulating the situation so that you had to go together, even though that wasn't a good option for any one? I would be very interested in how and why the decision was taken to go together in one car, and leave at 5pm.

Now, looking back, you're thinking that perhaps it really IS just that he can't manage these sorts of situations. After all, as you say, surely he wouldn't choose to "lose face" in front of your family?

However, I think that's a very black/white view of abusive behaviour. Abusive and controlling behaviour is about outcomes and for these types of abuser, there is only ONE real outcome they want: that their partner (and children if they have any) are always prioritising them and their needs/wants at all times.

So yes, perhaps your family now think slightly less of him, but if that means they perhaps invite you to fewer events, that is actually a win for him because he wants you to be less close to them, and have less involvement with them so that you have more time and energy to focus on him. Similarly, because the situation has been manipulated so that he was stressed because you/DN were not moving fast enough and he was (so so kindly) needing to get back to look after the dog, he will also assume that you are the one who will look like the bad guy. In a situation like this with exBIL, he might do something like send a message to the host saying something like, "I'm sorry about being a bit stressed at the end but I really needed to get going by 5pm because I couldn't leave the dog for that long. Baffled knew that from the start but I guess she just couldn't get DN out the door quick enough so I had to get going." The idea being that there is a subtle attempt to shift blame PLUS no real apology/accountability.

Really though, I go back to my pinned comment - how and why did you make this decision re the driving. It was not an ideal or preferable solution from the start so I think that he manipulated it (unconsciously) so that he gets to be the victim because YOU are not ready so HE can't look after the dog.

You didn't post anything about a Christening yesterday, maybe you posted about it on a previous occasion.
You seem to spend a lot of time babysitting your nephew. Hard work when he sounds poorly disciplined, he's 6 not 2. If a teacher tells him "now we're doing x not y" they wouldn't expect a 20 minute tantrum. Are you just poor at being assertive. It seems odd that neither of your nephew's parents came to the family christening, Does everyone in the family dump difficult situations on you?
The car scenario was predictable. Your partner would have been better just not coming and staying and dog sitting. You should have just told him he wasn't coming with you.

I absolutely am struggling to relax at the moment though, I'm overthinking things a lot as I'm scared of making a mistake either way in terms of either tolerating too much or making the decision to leave and regretting it.

OP, I've been where you are. It's hard because you love them but there will be NOTHING to regret if you leave. Living like this is torture. Now I'm out of my abusive relationship, I can't believe I put up with it for so long.

We had a child which made it harder to leave. But then that child is exposed to an awful and dysfunctional model of a relationship. This pushed me to leave eventually but now I only have my child half the time which breaks my heart but it's better than staying put. Please don't get this far. Leave now whilst you have no ties.

Thanks as always for your objective and helpful replies, they’ve really helped with giving me some things to consider and generally to help get my brain back out of the silly state I was in earlier.

With the nephew, Could your P not have just gone into another room? or said I'll just wait outside for 5 mins.
Doesn't this child have parents who were there?
That’s what I assumed he would do when he first said he needed to leave, I suggested a breather outside – but he actually meant full on physically leave. My brother was there earlier but had to leave early in the day to go to work so I’d pre-agreed I’d take my nephew home which I didn’t mind doing.

You know that every event will lead to some trauma but, told in isolation, each event seems entirely reasonable Ito the behaviour and that just leads to more confusion.
I think that’s a good summary to be fair – I’m reaching the point where I don’t want us to all go out together as every time seems to end up in some form of stress or something going wrong. But normally there is something going on that in hindsight I can say “well yes there was x stressful event that was the trigger” or “maybe I should have handled it this way instead” and so then you end up doubting who and what is reasonable. Taking yesterday as the example and agreeing 5pm leaving time not being the best idea in hindsight. Or wishing I’d started “prepping” to leave earlier as you mentioned – I lost track of time so only started doing it from about quarter to 5.

how and why did you make this decision re the driving. It was not an ideal or preferable solution from the start so I think that he manipulated it (unconsciously) so that he gets to be the victim because YOU are not ready so HE can't look after the dog.
DP was originally going to get a lift home separately, while I was always going to be driving myself home. But the person who was going to give DP a lift had a genuine emergency this weekend (that I know is a real event) so that fell through. So the fact that DP didn’t have a way to get home (other than a taxi but again that’s hindsight unfortunately!) wasn’t his fault or manufactured. Looking back though he did say to me during the day, I’ll be really ready to go by 5pm you know, that’s the latest I want to leave etc. and then last night pointed out that he’d told me in the day he’d struggle staying past 5pm. So it does feel a bit like he’d given himself advanced excuse to be moody – although equally I think I should have listened to those warning signs much better and made different plans.

Now, looking back, you're thinking that perhaps it really IS just that he can't manage these sorts of situations. After all, as you say, surely he wouldn't choose to "lose face" in front of your family?
In the past he’s always done the opposite – been super fun, super happy etc. in front of family even if he’d been unhappy before we arrived, which is why I felt like he’s always wanted to “look good” to them. With that viewpoint, that’s why it becomes hard to imagine that he’d walk out in that way unless he wasn’t coping, as it felt like an option he wouldn’t willingly pick. But I can see what you mean that if he thought there’d be empathy towards him then he might not actually see it as losing face. I think crucially though I am waking up to the fact that even if it was because he just can’t cope that doesn’t make any of it any better for anybody involved and something fundamentally has to change.

You didn't post anything about a Christening yesterday,
That was just bad wording in my previous message – DP and I went yesterday to the christening that I’ve mentioned previously would have been more accurate

You seem to spend a lot of time babysitting your nephew. Hard work when he sounds poorly disciplined, he's 6 not 2.
I do spend at least a couple of evenings or days a week with him which I’m happy to do but yes can be very hard work at the time, especially if he’s going through a difficult phase. He has underlying challenges, anxiety for example, so there’s more at play than just poor discipline, although I’m sure there’s some element of that and DP definitely would say that it’s just poor discipline.

Are you just poor at being assertive. It’s definitely not my strong point and something that I’m having to work on, although I’d say any people pleasing tendencies that I have tend to be more of an issue with adults than children.

The car scenario was predictable. Your partner would have been better just not coming and staying and dog sitting. You should have just told him he wasn't coming with you. In hindsight you’re right the car scenario was predictable and definitely something I need to reflect on and learn from.

If I recollect correctly, you wanted to go alone to this christening.
& as you predicted he did manage to put a dark cloud over it. a recurring theme where your DN is involved.
If he hadn't have been there, the problem with DN would not have arisen as you would not have had this imposed deadline.
So next time say, "don't bother to come, you'll only find a way to ruin it."

its not getting any better is it?
.

Right, so let's look at this. I know we're now getting super cynical because as I said earlier, in isolation this event seems like just a bit of a bad situation that wasn't handled well all round and that for 95% of us, such a situation would be chalked up to a bit of a general fuck up that we need to learn from. As you say yourself, there's always some explanation so then you land up doubting yourself.

But here's why I don't think so in this case:

First, the fact that it is consistent. You don't want to go out together because it always ends badly. The fact that each and every time might be for a legitimate, standalone reason, is actually not the point. The point is that consistently, you know it will go badly. And it does. So in this case, ti was the lift disappearing. But if the lift had stayed, there would have been something else. Deep down, you know this.

Then, in the case of this specific situation. So, the "trigger" was completely out of anyone's control - his lift fell through. But think it through, after that there were half a dozen small decisions that were taken that led to the issue and, I would argue, those decisions were made as they were as a result of a combination of his (probably unconscious) manipulation and your (also unconscious) tendency to be accommodating and take too much responsibility.

At the end of the day, you feel obligated to make HIS life easier. When really, as this was a long-planned family event, once his left fell through he should have insisted that your life NOT be inconvenienced and proactively done whatever was necessary to ensure it wasn't. Whether that's finding an alternative lift/getting a cab, taking the car earlier to his mum's then coming back to fetch you, proactively being responsible for getting you all out of the door on time or some other option. Instead, it inevitably became YOUR problem, and YOU are the bad guy here because you weren't understanding and supportive enough of HIS need to leave by 5pm.

And because you are the kind of person you are, you fall into this trap on the other side - you want to help him and accommodate him and make his life easier so you agree to things that aren't sensible. It doesn't mean it's your fault, but I think it's useful to understand how your kindness and empathy are then open to exploitation. Even comments from him like, "but you agreed to leave at 5 so why am I now the bad guy for wanting to leave on time" are classic as if this was me and DH for example, I'd retort with "sure, but you were the one who insisted so quite frankly, you should have put a bit more effort into making it happen."

I think crucially though I am waking up to the fact that even if it was because he just can’t cope that doesn’t make any of it any better for anybody involved and something fundamentally has to change.

I think this is really important too. We have worked out that DH probably has inattentive ADHD now that DS has been diagnosed. But there have been times where I've had to sit down with him and say, "I can't live like this so we need a solution that we can both live with" and he accepts and understands that. It usually involves compromise on BOTH of our sides. Which is fine. But I have the right to decide that I cannot be expected to just accept behaviour that makes me extremely unhappy.

Honestly this is so familiar to me. Not to keep comparing to my relationship but there's been so many times I've said no I'll drive myself etc and he has insisted to come or to pick me up to then cause a scene when I'm late or whatever doesn't go to the plan. Not the exact same situation of course but it seems like he kind of engineered it as he was the one set on sharing the car when if it was so important to leave on time it would have been a lot easier to take separate transport. To me it seems he enjoys the difficult situation he put you in as it makes you 1) wonder if you've done something wrong and 2) make you want to go to less social situations to avoid this happening again.

But normally there is something going on that in hindsight I can say “well yes there was x stressful event that was the trigger” or “maybe I should have handled it this way instead” and so then you end up doubting who and what is reasonable

This is a pattern isn't it?

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

You can justify each individual instance, but these aren't one-offs - the fact that I say 'these' indicates it happens in the plural.

You've got a consistent pattern here.

I'm older now and observe with a cool and careful eye the patterns of an individual's behaviour. They indicate a great deal about the person.

His pattern of behaviour is not one that fills you with confidence, security and cheerfulness, is it?

If he hadn't have been there, the problem with DN would not have arisen as you would not have had this imposed deadline.
So next time say, "don't bother to come, you'll only find a way to ruin it." its not getting any better is it?
That's true - if DP hadn’t been there and I’d had 10 extra minutes to handle DN then it would have been fine. Equally if DN hadn’t been there and we left at exactly 5pm it would have been fine. It’s the fact that they were both there that caused the issue.
In terms of things not getting better… I’d been thinking it has because there have been some areas of improvement, but when I think about things like this weekend, the fact that it escalated so quickly, how anxious I felt, the fact that maybe it could have been avoided if I’d been more willing to stand up for myself earlier in the day… there’s some pretty big indicators that the problems are still there, just slightly different.

The fact that each and every time might be for a legitimate, standalone reason, is actually not the point. The point is that consistently, you know it will go badly.
Thank you – I think the fact that there’s always a reason or justification has made it more confusing so this is helpful to hear.

Then, in the case of this specific situation. So, the "trigger" was completely out of anyone's control - his lift fell through. But think it through, after that there were half a dozen small decisions that were taken that led to the issue and, I would argue, those decisions were made as they were as a result of a combination of his (probably unconscious) manipulation and your (also unconscious) tendency to be accommodating and take too much responsibility.
I can understand what you mean as reading your post reminded me that I did briefly suggest earlier in the day that he could always leave earlier and come back to pick us up (as deep-down I didn’t really want a dictated departure time) and his response was that there wasn’t a lot of point doing that for the sake of an hour. I didn’t take the conversation any further which when I think back to it now was 1) because I sort of saw his point but 2) probably moreso, because, as you say, I fell into the trap of being accommodating and old habits again. I felt like he was getting a bit stressed with the conversation so I slipped into the default position of just leaving it. Which was stupid, and in the long run just created a different problem.

Lesson learnt, from today I have to start speaking my mind and standing up for myself!! And if that creates problems with DP then so be it, I'll take that as telling me everything I need to know.

Even comments from him like, "but you agreed to leave at 5 so why am I now the bad guy for wanting to leave on time" are classic as if this was me and DH for example, I'd retort with "sure, but you were the one who insisted so quite frankly, you should have put a bit more effort into making it happen."
Thinking back now, I think if we’d ended up leaving past 5 and he’d been annoyed then I could have understood that (once that had been agreed as the plan and acknowledging that it probably should never have been the plan!)… the thing that I didn’t like is the fact that there was no option of him staying a bit later while I settled DN… he just told me that he was going to leave and again from previous experience I knew that we were past the point of even attempting to have a conversation about it.

I think crucially though I am waking up to the fact that even if it was because he just can’t cope that doesn’t make any of it any better for anybody involved and something fundamentally has to change.
I think this is really important too. We have worked out that DH probably has inattentive ADHD now that DS has been diagnosed. But there have been times where I've had to sit down with him and say, "I can't live like this so we need a solution that we can both live with" and he accepts and understands that. It usually involves compromise on BOTH of our sides. Which is fine. But I have the right to decide that I cannot be expected to just accept behaviour that makes me extremely unhappy.
I’m definitely still holding onto this point as for once I almost don’t care why he’s behaving the way he is, whether there is a justification for it, or equally whether there is a justification for the way I feel in those moments. For once I just care about how it feels and I’m not willing to carry on feeling on edge, pressured, unable to speak or stuck in the middle.

Honestly this is so familiar to me. Not to keep comparing to my relationship but there's been so many times I've said no I'll drive myself etc and he has insisted to come or to pick me up to then cause a scene when I'm late or whatever doesn't go to the plan.
Feel free to compare away as it actually really helps me knowing that I’m not the only person that experiences this and it’s not just a case of me somehow causing the situation. There are other occasions I’ve experienced like what you describe where DP wants to pick me up (and pushes for it) but then that means agreeing a pick-up time that I’d feel bad being late to.

His pattern of behaviour is not one that fills you with confidence, security and cheerfulness, is it
No, it really doesn’t. There’s too many occasions where it fills me with anxiety and self-doubt.

Responding to this thread has been incredibly helpful as always, as it’s so much clearer that I absolutely have to start speaking my mind and that if the patterns of behaviour carry on (or worsen) because of that then the relationship just isn’t sustainable.

So that starts today… start speaking my mind and mentally getting my ducks in a row so that in the likely event that nothing improves, I can find my nerve to call it a day.

@brighterdaze - I missed your post until now, but thank you so much for sharing your experience with me. It's a really helpful reminder to be brave and get this sorted now. I hope you're doing well now.