January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@Genuineweddingone - this is typical behaviour of toxic people when you reject them or stand up to them. It's full-on narcissistic rage, lashing out and going nuclear in order to control the narrative.

My highly toxic sister did exactly the same thing with a full-on hate campaign, telling anyone and everyone what a terrible person I am and spreading all kinds of lies and talking shit about me.

There's nothing you can do except hold your head up high and refuse to rise to any of it. Ignore, ignore, ignore.

Next time a friend (or anyone else) starts to tell you about something horrible your mother is doing or saying about you, I would suggest you hold your hand up to stop them and say you have no interest whatsoever in hearing about it.

I'm so sorry this happened. Please be strong and continue to ignore. She's doing this to try and force contact

Be strong

@FreeRider it can feel exhausting when triggered. I have to do a lot of pep talking to myself when triggered as I have low self-esteem because of family trauma. Write all those feelings down - it helps 🤗

@Genuineweddingone this is awful and yes NC will bring this behaviour out in toxic people. My brother also spread rumours about me when I went LC and then followed this by silent treatment - it worked and I fell for the bait 🤦🏻‍♀️I called him to check if he was ok. What followed was him trying to put me down, criticise me and then telling me how I should behave! So I went NC after this, 18 months ago. I was a mess at first but much better now. I should have gone NC sooner and not fallen for the bait. So, stay strong! It’s horrible, but ignore it and do not react. Don’t explain yourself to anyone either. When people spread rumours it all comes out in the end anyway, so don’t get caught up in it. But do let yourself feel angry and upset if needed - you will come out the other side of those feelings. 💛

@Genuineweddingone they always ramp it up to force you back in line. My mum said terrible things about me, it was really embarrassing, anyone who knew me and my family didn't entertain her, so she was basically telling strangers and people who are not in my life. Eventually people get bored hearing shit except the other drama llamas, once they give her an ear they will get bombarded with shit about everyone.
It is a whole change of outlook, we refuse to get enmeshed or embroiled in the shit. It gets easier, fuck em xx

The thought of my FOO doing similar really put me off going non-contact, @Genuineweddingone
What helped was thinking about whether their lies would actually hold any water with people who knew me and my DP & family. Given the tales the mother had concocted to show herself in a good light and indispensable, which had come out over time, I decided that if people chose to believe her lies then that was up to them and it was probably people who we weren't in touch with anyway.
You need a hard hat and a thick shell, but the people who really know you and matter in your life, will use their eyes and ears to look at things and make their own decision etc.

Long time lurker. Nc to join in with thread as now is time i am trying to finally go LC with DM. I wish NC but i dont have the balls!!
i struggling hard to even go LC as she constantly tries to call me, video call me and text me daily - just checking in, what are you upto, are you free to see me. I want to scream in her face LEAVE ME ALONE.

brief brief history - DM is recovering alcoholic, v.toxic, manipulative and controlling. Bullies me into stuff i do not want to do. Makes racial slurs and if i call her out on it act like im being ridiculous. Tries to influence my kids, i try to keep them away from her as much as possible which is sad.

so far today i have ignored a video call and a text from this morning. It is not in my nature to ignore people and i hate being ignored myself.

struggling hard to even go LC as she constantly tries to call me, video call me and text me daily - just checking in, what are you upto, are you free to see me. I want to scream in her face LEAVE ME ALONE.

I'm new to the thread too and trying to understand things better. This part is familiar to me. Not necessarily daily, sometimes it's nothing for months then several texts over a few minutes or hours. It's the same pattern though - niggle niggle niggle until you give a response. I can't stand it and get stressed if their name flashes up on my phone. They know my phone isn't kept about my person so why not send one message then wait for a reply? I always reply to people same day or next. None of the messages are ever urgent and some don't even need a reply beyond "thanks" or "ok" to show it's been received.

@Schneekugel it is exhausting. I am
the same my stomach sinks when i see her name pop up. I have to constantly think of excuses as to why I’m unavailable.
I only actually see her face to face every month or so (as long as i can make it!) but each time there is a comment about how long its been. I say yes but we speak all the time and she says its not the same and i should imagine being away from my kids for 6 weeks to see how i feel.
well yes but different when my kids are 2 and 5 not in their early 30s 🤣

Mums new cleaner came today...
She text to say place is spotless 👍
Phew
Hello to new posters. Sorry you're here but this is a super supportive thread
We GET it ❤️

@Complexcass and @Schneekugel - handling the transition to LC takes time, effort and practice.

Remember that you have been trained to do what you're told and that your feelings of FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) run very deep.

Be patient with yourself, kind to yourself, and listen to your gut instincts. That sinking feeling of dread when they call is indicative of the trauma they have inflicted upon you. Your natural instinct is to avoid them.

That's okay.

Read up about FOG, learn about Yellow Rock Technique, and check out some of Dr Ramani's videos on YouTube on toxic family dynamics.

Learn how to put yourself first and say NO.

Like some other regular posters here, I found LC unsustainable and the only answer for me was to go NC. It's not easy but it stops the cycle of abuse.

I know I shouldn't have done but I just got into a texting fight with my mum.

I'm never normally one to say anything or stand up for myself. Even my own mum admitted to me that she doesn't argue with my sister because she knows that she will have a go at her back where as I just don't say anything.
Everyone has a breaking point. I'm so angry!
She turned herself into the victim by saying I hadn't asked how her holiday was!!! She literally bombarded me with unwanted holiday pics whilst I've been at home in the UK getting to grips that I'll only see my son half the time, health issues and money worries. But apparently I'm the bad guy now.
Said she won't apologise for not replying to me to ask how I was because apparently I was rude. Well yes I was because I'm fed up with her never checking in especially when I'm verging on an emotional breakdown.

Why are these parents like this. Why? I wouldn't never dream of behaving like this with my son. All I want is his happiness and to unsure he's happy and ok. I don't get why they are not this way

Thanks sicario and user.

I've been doing LC for about 10yrs due to needing to withdraw from the world a bit for my own reasons, now I'm reintegrating but with a new outlook and feel I've stepped into an alternate universe whenever I'm around the parent. I'm beginning to think that all the efforts at LC (and it was a hugely damaging drain on me trying to maintain it during that time) have been for nothing and I should have walked away from the start, accepting any fallout. I had a nosey at previous threads and it seems there's no solution other than NC?

Cass exhausting is right. I'm tired of the amount of headspace two people who I rarely have anything to do with are taking up. I feel like it's preventing me from living my full life.

Hello to everyone new.

@Genuineweddingone glad you had a lovely time with your son. Focus on him and ignore anything anyone tells you about your mum. Is there any chance she saw a SM post via someone of you and son having a nice time and that started her up again?

@MonkeyfromManchester so sorry to hear about SS, he’s there no matter what as he remembers the children’s home and bring away from his dad and losing his mum. Poor little fellow, and then he gets that poor version of a SM to boot. If you or them need clarity on what is or isn’t true you can order birth, death and marriage certificates even for people who are still alive from the general records office. It might hold some keys or snippets to the truth and help. It’s been one of my hobbies for the last few years, seeing all these records and newspaper clippings for thousands of people I’m related to who came before me has been helping me a lot to come to terms with my life at the moment. Makes me realise they can’t all hate me or exclude me as there must be someone I’m related to who was nice and kind.

I also did a DNA test last year when I plucked up the courage, and after my mother banned me from ever doing such a thing, on the off chance maybe I had been adopted at birth but sadly no such luck 😂

Bad day today for me too. It was my sons birthday. In my case we want a ‘normal relationship’ where we meet them with boundaries like on costa for a coffee. But they don’t want that and stopped talking to us in March 2021 when I moved out with my two children after their ‘kind actions of buying a house for us’ went fully tits up when they chose the house without me visiting, offered and accepted but then my father wanted to buy it in their names but me pay for it each money with my salary in his account each month and he would give me cash to live on etc we said no. You’d think that would be ok but no - he lost the plot. We then moved out after they were waking me up at 5 am to discuss stuff and my head scabbed over and hair fell out. We weren’t allowed to watch tv etc or do anything without their say so.

we moved out and it nearly bankrupted me - as we had moved in with them whilst my house sold, it sold nearly a year later and I had to pay mortgage and rent during that time. I nearly lost everything.

but I’m sad, sad I don’t have normal loving family sad my son had his 3 rd birthday 2022,2023,2024 without them even texting him happy birthday, sad we’ve all had 3 birthday and 2 christmases of nothing. No text nothing.

I’ve reached out and sent messages asking for a reconciliation we even met them once but because we won’t back down - on the house thing and because my daughter has told them how rejected she feels after they don’t bother to text or ring her (she was the apple of my fathers eye) my dad looked like he been slapped.

very sad very sad tonight. My son has a nice birthday and cards from friends etc but no family sent him cards except me and his sister. Not one member of his family.

why don’t they care? Why can’t they be loving and kind and normal?? Why???

brother and sister are nasty as well.

Hugs to everyone.

monkey - you hanging in there?

@MonkeyfromManchester

Because they are not built that way IAAP. All these people are interested in is controlling you all, not reconciliation nor a normal relationship. That will never happen ever because they will then have to admit they were wrong. You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Surround yourselves with radiators, not drains.

You're well rid of them by the sound of it !
But of course the FOG doesn't allow you to realise that
They sound utterly unhinged
Enjoy your family
They are the important ones x

Hope @mm and MrM are OK? X

I'm off to see mum soon...then meetings again.

I did not sleep one wink last night. Ugh. Peri menopause sucks.

Such a busy week coming up too :(

I might have a sneaky day "off" this week 😲

I'm just so tired

I just wanted to pop in and thank everyone for their words. Its all running through my head right now and almost suffocating me because I would never in a million years do to anyone what my mother has done to me. I thank you all for your words and support.

Thank you all. I am scared LC will not be enough but i honestly don’t know if i could go NC.
i didnt reply to her all day and eventually sent a bare minimal reply. She read and hasn’t responded so i think she is annoyed i kept her waiting and then gave nothing.

i do need to read up properly on grey rock/yellow rock techniques!

Hope you are all staying strong!

@Complexcass NC was the only thing that worked for me and gave me any peace. I had been lc for years, it just leaves the door open. My mum was alcoholic but no better when she eventually sobered up. Alcoholics are selfish, self absorbed people, they can't bear their own company. They don't care how intrusive they are as long as they get their own way and it's usually just verbal diarrhea. They never have real friends either [surprise]. The amount of headspace it takes to keep ignoring and handling drunks is harder than NC. Alcoholics are toxic and manipulative, tell your mum to go to AA she can talk bollocks all day to an audience!

@binkie163 thank you, you are right.
she is sober and does visit AA. Which is good. But she still has all the personality traits. She has replaced alcohol with processed food and eats shit 24/7. If she ever picked up a drink again then I would 100% go NC.

Today I had a last minute text at lunch time asking to pop in. I ignored it and later realised she had deleted the message because she had a better offer and visited a friend. Fine by me !!
maybe tomorrow I can go 24 hours without any contact.

Reading, following, wishing everyone on here well. Thanks for the new thread

@Complexcass it is bonkers that we can consider 24 hours NC an achievement! Normal families can go week/month with NC and no one is offended.
I found the book adult daughters of alcoholics very good but it does encourage NC as alcoholics rarely take responsibility for their behavior clinging to the old 'its an illness' get out of jail card. Cancer is an illness, being a drunk is a choice.

NC works for me