January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau just checking to see if you are ok? I have not seen you posting on this thread, maybe you have not seen it?

I think she is in hospital atm :(

@Genuineweddingone
Glad you had a good weekend away. You are definitely getting stronger. You will feel the bumps in the road, but you’re out of your mum’s orbit.

@FreeRider
I’m very sorry to hear about the nasty note. Yep, it’s a trigger. This is the stuff with abuse - the ongoing impacts from other sources.

To anyone who’s putting LC or pushing back on crap will be experiencing a change in the behaviour from the abusers. Expect that they will try out these strategies (sometimes this overlaps which is hugely confusing) trying to force more contact, love bombing, getting other people involved or the most batshit of all BEING NASTIER.

@Complexcass it is so hard to reduce contact. Hugs.

@Bringonthesun24
I’m so sorry you are having such a crap time. The self-centredness of some people like your mum never ceases to amaze me.

@user8800
Great news on the cleaner! Please send me details. Lol. Enjoy the sneaky day off!

@Tbry24
Thank you. It’s such a grim family story.

@IAAP hello. Good to see you, but it’s so rubbish that you are contending with the long shadows your parents have cast. Huge hugs to you, lovely.

Hag (toxic MIL) update.
She’s out of the infectious ward after recovering from pneumonia. Hag was such a nightmare there with constant drama games of screaming, aggression, refusing food and meds. Had to have one to one care. Bet that costs the NHS £££. I also bet the nurses were drawing lots on who got the short straw of sitting with her.

She had her hip op on Saturday, which had she NOT refused would have been last Saturday. More costs to the NHS.

Now returned to the orthopaedic ward where she was a nightmare, so I’m sure the staff are ringing in sick left, right and centre.

I’m in contact with social services. Reminding them of all the issues AND THAT WE ARE NOT TAKING IT ON. Care home is the option I want.

Due to trauma bond and his kindness (which he has in spades despite the utter shit childhood), Mr Monkey is seeing his vile mother regularly at the hospital, which is far from ideal (!). But I’m not getting involved until I will need to E.g., when it all gets nasty again. Surely, this can’t go on forever?!?!

@MonkeyfromManchester they are miracles of modern medicine! Pneumonia and op/anesthetic and still going strong. A reminder for mm that she is strong as an ox not the feeble, helpless old lady she pretends.

We went through 10 years of my mum in hospital 3-4 times a year, various infections [chest, UTI] breathing problems/asthmatic, falls, broken bones, nutrition deficiencies, pretend hallucinations on and on. Each time the family thought this is it but she always bounced back, we were completely exhausted by it. They can't go on forever, my mum died last year age 90! A lifetime of poor health choices, alcoholism, bad diet, no exercise. COVID was a saviour as legitimate reason not to visit 2018 was the last time I actually saw my parents.
I hope hag is discharged to nursing home but that has its own problems as it will not necessarily be close. My mums last week was a n/h 40 miles away no one visited. I would bet money that had my mum gone to n/h much sooner she would still be with us.
Get those COVID bats out your shed x

Hello everyone. I'm here because of my awful sisters.

I'm NC with them now. Have been for two years. It's so liberating, knowing I don't have to pretend to have a relationship with them anymore.

@binkie163 i think the miracles of modern medicine should be selectively applied.

That's a litany of health issues. I blame the war and its carefully calculated nutritionally sound diet.

Ah, yes, the pretend halluncinations. We've had some of those with the Hag. Doubtless, she has had some delusions, which are common with broken hips/UTI, but because she cries wolf so bloody often I just don't have much belief.

So, today, it looks like she's in decline with the Drs saying she's not responding to treatment and are talking about palliative care. I don't hold out much hope, although you never know with her.

I don't feel very much for her, she's been jealous of me and VERY hurtful, nasty about my family, but very happy to be an entitled leech and using my mum for lifts, Christmas etc.

I, obviously, feel for Mr Monkey. Although she has been an utterly horrible mother to him (violent etc), she's still his mother (hello, trauma bond), so he's very upset.

I hope guilt doesn't set in, there has been nothing he can do for her. He's tried so much with her, and therapy taught him that guilt is a pointless emotion as she is the one who has very deliberately made an appalling life for herself for attention’s sake and lever ever more enmeshment of her sons. I'm proud of MM for the way he's handled the realisation about a lousy childhood and sought a different.

Slave Son’s life is going to be empty, he's been doing the bedside vigil for hours each day DESPITE her making his life shit and all about her.

Fuuuuuuuck.

@TheShellBeach welcome. The gang is all here. So glad to hear of your liberation from your sisters. Xxx

Thank you @MonkeyfromManchester

@mm
You've been in my thoughts x

I know what you mean re: poor life choices.

In mums case decades of smoking, not eating properly, not keeping up with her mobility...I could go on...have all meant a pretty miserable life in her later years

Nothing I can do.

Other than deal with the complications/emergencies that occur 🤷‍♀️

@user8800 absolutely.

Hag has religiously taken her medications for all her ailments, but she has very deliberately shrunk her world to her sons with the expectation that they will pick up all her care and absorb her abuse.

The last three years have been hell, ever since she stayed here in 2020 post-covid and for various nefairious reasons (until banned) with the expectation our house would become a permanent one-person nursing home. My tolerance for her is gon .

Oh yes, WE pick up the pieces. Such a joy.

@MonkeyfromManchester its a shit show. It was such a relief when my mum died. I hope that when the time comes you can both move forward and start getting on with your life, do not waste another second thinking about her or on any sadness.
I sort of feel like I have graduated from this group now my narc mum gone. I just wish I had gone NC years earlier than I did. Just my old dad now, I feel a bit weird about who will find him at the end (not me as I live abroad) I had always loved my dad as I felt so sad for him being married to mum. Families jeeeez I honestly dont know how half of us survived them.

ShellBeach I'm dropping a sibling this year too and feel the same way.

Binkie I imagine feeling the same way when mine goes (no sign of it yet). People keep telling me you've only got one family, you'll miss them when they're gone, make more of an effort to sort it out. I don't get anything positive though, maybe 10% buy the rest is some form of nastiness. I've made years of effort to sort it out, all I want from them is to be treated with basic respect and kindness like you'd show to a stranger. Don't think that's too much to ask!

I dread visits ages in advance, can't lean on them for support, tiptoe on eggshells during conversation to try avoid giving them ammunition to use against me, can't be honest and open about my life and have to put up with awful comments and sometimes physical violence. Why would I miss that? I feel guilty for having these thoughts and I don't wish death on anyone but I often think my life will be easier when they're gone.

Monkey she sounds delightful! 😲

@mm
I think SS is too far gone tbh. In my lived experience, I've seen similar family set ups, and they usually follow their abuser not long after.
It's hugely sad.

MrM will be OK. He's got you.

I'm having an awful week (not mum related) and having a day off from her tomorrow.

I shall be back on aldi duty on Friday 🙄🤣

@binkie163
I’m very ready to move on from the shit show. It has been three long years. 55 years for Mr Monkey. I’m glad we were settled when the hag was ‘guest of the century’ as if it had been a two year relationship I would have packed my bags. I had to be VERY tough. Been exhausting and my focus.

It’s interesting as I wonder whether if she was my mother whether I would have run to the hills as soon I was old enough. Probably not as the coercive narcs do a fantastic job on their kids. I’m glad you escaped.

@Schneekugel She’s wall to wall magic, complete with bloody unicorn dust.

It drives me MAD when people project their happy post-Julie Andrews Von Trapp family skipping through the alps crap on you. Walk a couple of paces in my shoes, many of us will want to scream. People’s idiocy is extraordinary. Behind many, MANY front doors are shit families.

We are lucky that there’s an understanding tribe here. Thank god, I found this forum.

@user8800 thank you. Yes, I think Slave Son will go soon. I just need to protect Mr Monkey.

At least, the Irish funeral will be a laugh as the extended family are lovely. I’ll grit my teeth during the eulogy and nice old nun lady who was always ‘God forgive her, she had a hard life.’ Better not get too drunk and tell nice old nun lady about knife throwing at her kids, bruises, threatening a children’s home, forbidding an eight year Mr Monkey to have a photo of his dead father on his bedside table etc. etc. etc.

I’m glad you are having a mum free day, but sorry to hear about your shit week. I hope Aldi isn’t too grim. The cheese is always great! And the temptations in the middle of the store. Buy a canoe!

love to all xxx

Agreed about finding our tribe here. I am lucky I have a friend who has gone through this too because even though other friends have seen what my wagon narc mother has done they still have mostly lost their mums and I suspect deep down in the 'but you only have one mother' category but never say it to me thankfully. Families are unreal they really are. The more you talk to other people the more you realise that.

Officially not one of my family have been in contact except my dad since this all kicked off bar that scathing message from my sister. I hope they work her out soon.

I'm a lurker and occasional poster. Monkey I applaud you for your attitude and boundaries and unswerving support for Mr M. My mum has been in hospital since May last year and won't be getting home. She has refused food, drink and medication and we thought she was on her way out, but no. She's started eating again and so it continues. She refused to do a power of attorney and I now have to apply for guardianship for her with all the hassle it entails. My brother is in cloud cuckoo land. He claims he's "looking after her flat." This means in his head he's justified in using her bank account to pay all the bills. His first question when I spoke to him about the guardianship was, "who pays for the care home?" Social work are pressing me to get moving with the guardianship because otherwise they'll take over. I don't feel that I can let them do that. No idea why, as mum hasn't been kind and has criticized me most of my life. Here's the thing, since she was rushed to hospital, she has been unfailingly happy to see me. Genuinely so. Of course, it's down to cognitive impairment and dementia but still. The nurses and health care staff like her too. So it goes on. I hope The Hag departs soon, Monkey, and gives peace to Mr M and you

@Genuineweddingone shit families are everywhere, lots of denial and delusion. Having lost someone your mum can abuse (you), I’m pretty sure your mum will tire of not having someone to pick at and choose someone else.

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand thank you so much. I’m exhausted.

I love my SIL dearly, adore her, but I have a feeling that she and her twenty something sons will drive down from Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 and stay. SIL is like Tigger. What’s sad is SIL will do the right thing, never knowing the spiteful things Hag has said about her and done.

hugs to you. I suspect your brother, as he eyes up the silver, isn’t doing the guardianship…it ALWAYS falls on women to care and organise. Fuck the patriarchy.

I have cracked open the wine. Wise Irish friend said “get the practice in as you’ll need it for the wake” and then told me about the arrest at his cousin’s funeral at a posh hotel in Dublin. Bless him. Camp as tits actor: “I’ll come with you and denounce her from the pulpit. I Fucking love all that old school 1950s Irish suppression.” I’m not sure he’s joking.

Monkey correct. He's not doing the guardianship. He probably couldn't anyway as he was registered bankrupt, hence him living with mum and dad for the last eighteen years and scrounging off then the entire time. And he's mentally unstable so probably wouldn't pass the psych evaluation either. So, yup. All down to me

@MonkeyfromManchester I agree get the practice in. We do nothing better than a good send off over here!!

@TheShellBeach hi and welcome, my siblings are currently NC with me. The other way around but the result is the same.

is Cecile ok btw? Not seen any posts from her recently.

My sister's husband died just before Christmas. I found out via my DS who got an email.

Then my other sister texted me to tell me, from a number I didn't recognise. I said "who is this?" and she replied A.

So I didn't answer and just blocked the number. I had long blocked both sisters.

I didn't contact the new widow. And I don't care. She and her vile husband treated me terribly badly, for many, many years.

My third sister (who I loved) died fifteen years ago.

The nasty sisters hated her, too - and they bullied her mercilessly for her whole life.

I asked the same and tagged her but someone replied to say she is back in hospital poor woman.

At xmas I sent money via revolut to my nephew to my sisters card and got absolutely no response. It was his birthday yesterday and again I just sent on money again and got a message to say thanks but that was on the revolut app not an email or text or whatsapp or whatever. It is my sisters 40th tomorrow so I dont know what to do whether to recognise it or not.

LadyMacbeth

You need legal advice re a guardianship.

Do you really need to go down this route?. Given how your mother has behaved towards you I would seriously consider letting her local authority take over. It’s probably your FOG that is making you think about taking on guardianship for her anyway. you do not owe your mother anything.

Do not bother with your sisters birthday and no longer send money to your nephew. Do you think he received the money anyway given it was sent to her?.