January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@JellyWellyBoots well done for making a decision that's going to be fair to you and the poor dog. Your aunt wants the dog and has the time etc to put into caring for it. If your sister was so desperate to have the dog handy for cuddles etc then she needed to step up and adopt the dog.
It sounds as though having your sister around won't be good for you (she sounds bossy!) so look to put physical and emotional space between you. Block her if you need to, and give yourself some space to breathe and grieve.

@Parentalalienation She's incredibly bossy. She likes to tell me how to live my life & has an opinion about everything.
I remember being on a holiday with her once and I spent the night with my holiday boyfriend. When I got back the next day she looked at me with pure disgust & disapproval and barely spoke to me for the entire day.
She's very pushy and her way is the only way. It's absolutely exhausting being her sister sometimes.

She's expecting me to keep an animal I've said I no longer want to be responsible for just so she can see her once every few weeks.

Yikes. She sounds as bad as my cousin. She has no right to boss you around, I know you know that, and that it's far easier said than done. You need to stand firm and imagine all of us on this thread standing behind you and cheering you on when you stand your ground over things. I'd be making plans to minimise your contact with her.

Trouble is, she's the only family I have left. She views our relationship completely differently to how I do. I love her and care about her but there is this horrible narcissistic side that she is completely and utterly oblivious to. In her eyes she loves me and is there for me and supports me. I believe she believes that but it comes across differently to how I think she thinks she acts and behaves. She decided when we are friends, she decided what mood we will be in, etc etc.

Your sister sounds like a carbon copy of your parents.

You very much remain the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. It will do you no good at all to remain in contact with your sister or parents here.

And you do not need family like this either. She neither loves or cares about you, she just wants to bully you into submission and otherwise use you as her personal scapegoat. You certainly need far more mental and physical distance away from her.

I think it's like being in any abusive relationship. It takes time to recognise it for what it is, and then to actually leave takes longer. It took me years to finally go no contact with my parents.

Atilla, I think if I'd had this wee community here I'd probably have acted sooner.

Same

So, and I knew this would happen, the call was made today for me to help out. By the end of this week.

I'm planning to go over on Monday.

Sicario or they step over to the dark side of the web, click on "Filipino Brides 4 U" (+), go on "holiday", "fall in love" whilst there and have a quick visa marriage. (+ Other nationalities are available). It's grim.

Hope you're ok Monkey.

Jellywelly the dog is all she has left? This being the same dog she refuses to take ownership of herself. CF. You are not her personal unpaid dog boarder.

Pearly when the PIP letters inevitably arrive to your address, send them back "not known at this address, return to sender" on the envelope. Post office will return it and the claim will be stopped. It's definitely benefit fraud to claim from an address she doesn't live at. I doubt she's entitled to it at all, living in France.

@placemats It's because she isn't settled enough to take on the responsibility. She's looking to move, wants to plan to go travelling again.
She's angry at me because I changed my mind about keeping the dog. She said to me 'you said you wanted to keep her, you fought to keep her'. & that is absolutely true. When my father died I was asked to give up the dog the very next day of which I couldn't. I've gone from being attached to the dog to detached & I can't explain why, it's like I suddenly can't stand her anymore. Where has this come from?
I feel horrible because she's a lovely animal, I am just overwhelmed with responsibility at the moment. I also want to move house this year nearer the city.

This seems petty but the dog sheds fur like no tomorrow. I find it in clumps all over the house, I find it in my food, it gets upstairs (even though she doesn't go upstairs) it even gets in the fridge somehow?! Thick black dog hairs everywhere. I hoover everyday sometimes twice a day & it's ridiculous. I managed to live with it for a while but it's really getting to me again. How petty does that sound?!
I find the smell also hard to live with (yes I have a cleanliness obsession) & walking her is difficult as she tugs and pulls and gets the lead tangled to the point I don't like walking her. I get so frustrated I end up swearing & gritting my teeth. She's always in the way, we are constantly tripping over her. School/work mornings I get especially irritable. I know it's a me problem, she's just a dog & these reasons are stupid & don't justify wanting to re home her. I must sound like such a fucking princess.
DD is the same, she gets cross with me about the dog hair.

My sister thinks I am just overwhelmed in general & im using the dog as an excuse. She thinks if I wait a few more weeks I will feel differently.

She's asked me to drop the dog off for the day tomorrow so she can spend some time with her and say goodbye, I can tell this is just another thing she's going to hold over me & bring up every now and then to make me feel guilty. She's already said 'I can't believe your doing this, please don't do this'.

Will be replying to individual posters over the next few days. Love and solidarity to all.

My Big Fat Fucked Up Funeral Diary.

Actually, it wasn't too bad.

Mr Monkey had briefed family and friends that his estranged prodigal twat of a brother Golden Boy would be gracing us all with his presence.

I sat through a long mass and I wasn't struck by a bolt of lightening (the heathen amongst Mr Monkey’s Irish catholic family) I went to the cemetery and there was no resurrection. Huge relief there.

Then on to the pub. SIL being her normal charming self chatting to everyone and being lovely. She was as nervous as hell about being in the same room as her toxic ex-husband GB, but didn't show it. GB blanked her.

SIL sat with Wife Number 2 and her little girl - who had a really nasty cold - in the pub and chatted away for a time.
(To me later: well, I certainly don't blame her for any of his shit behaviour. He picked her up when she was 17. Poor girl.)

GB must have been terrified by the sight of those two chatting. He doesn't do gracious.

He did try to inveigle himself with eldest nephew by coming over at one point to a table where I and nephew were sat amongst friends and did the whole “cheers, so great to see you” to 21 year old nephew. Several times. I gave the twat the side eye, whilst nephew looked really uncomfortable and was probably thinking who the fuck is this fucker who wasn't interested in me as a child, abused my mum, disappeared from my life for seven years ago and tried at one point to claim the family home.

Other nephew - 20 - just blanked him all day. Very obviously at one point. Go, nephew.

Little girl got more ill and, obviously, GB wasn't doing unmanly stuff like checking in on his wife (clearly very shy and very embarrassed by the whole thing) and his daughter.

GB was holding court and being “life and soul of the party” to some men who hadn't got the memo about what a wanker he is.

Mr Monkey was checking in regularly with wife number two and it was obvious the child needed to go back to the hotel and sleep.

So, Mr Monkey had to go out into pub garden to get GB whilst he’s in full on narc mode.

“You need to take your daughter back to the hotel as she's ill.”
“I'm just catching up with the lads.”

‘The lads’ - MM’s friends - were all looking really uncomfortable as they are really decent men and great dads and they all stood up as one as if to signal “get the fuck into that pub and look after your family.”

And then GB fucked off. We will never have to see the utter shit again.

MM has just texted him to see if the little girl is OK.

And I think that will be the last contact he has with his twat of a brother.

Well done Monkey, and MM. GB will have shown himself up for the twat that he is.

Now that the funeral is over, I hope MM can begin the healing process in earnest. You've been a total rock and have spread strength and inspiration in equal measure to all of us here.

Dysfunctional / abusive family dynamics are so damaging. This thread is an absolute lifeline.

I spent most of yesterday crying after putting the note in the post to my disabled brother about never coming back and never wanting to be reminded of all the abuse and shit I'd been subjected to. I felt terrible because I know he is scared and vulnerable and that the sudden death of our brother will have affected him deeply.

But the voices of the Stately Homers were louder: don't go there, don't do it, never look back. Without that collective strength and support I may well have bucked and found myself hoovered back in to the quagmire of shite.

It's like having an army of amazing anonymous friends living in my phone. I am so grateful.

So it went as well as it could by the sounds of it @mm?

Your sil has behaved beautifully in all this, as have you.

I also feel very sorry for GBs new wife and child. Sounds like she was groomed :(

Grief - especially complicated grief - is a funny thing. It can catch you unawares when you think you're doing OK. I'm sure you'll be there for MrM but make sure you show up for yourself too.

A friend asked for some advice this week re: her late parents will/inheritance/poor family dynamics etc and I spent a day this week in bed (not her fault!) as it just brought it all back for me. I felt sick and upset all day.

It's 12 years since we lost dad and sometimes it still feels as raw as the day it happened. I can cope with that. Its being reminded that I was totally alone (aside from dh and my dc who were very young) with everything. It was all left to me. I still can't forgive that.

I'm pootling along...mum isn't great, but not much can be done about it.
Dh and dc are great - I'm very lucky 💙

Sending love to all x

@Sicario thank you. As I'm mooching around the house pretending to tidy up I've just remembered one other hilarious thing from yesterday.

Another of GB’s ex-partners (MM’s now very good friend) was there. They were together in the late 80s for a year. Again, he picked a young girl - she was probably about 16 - who he could dominate and abuse. She escaped. He is STILL angry that she left him for one of MM’s best mates. They married and had three kids. A gorgeous family. Again, lovely SIL was sat with her chatting away.

I just wished the two of them could have sat with Wife Number Two and compared notes and given the advice of RUN FOR THE FUCKING HILLS, LOVE, AND DON’T LOOK BACK. Save your daughter from being damaged by a misogynistic narc bastard.

MM is really sad today, he's gone to Hag Towers for the house clearance. Flat goes back to the council on Monday.

I've got an hour zoom meeting with fellow freelancer mate (he's great) and our shared client this PM. In the zoom, I'll be doing performative day after funeral daughter in law (societal expectations - WHO WRITES THESE RULES?) and then I will catch up with mate later to dissect yesterday. His family has similar characters so he just gets it. Very dry sense of humour, too. That's the only work I'm doing today.

I'm so sorry you were having that shit day after sending the card. But I'm really glad you got the support you needed here. You've been a life line to so many yourself, including me. Very much so.

It's so difficult to stay tough with someone vulnerable, but as you say it would be back to square one. And your sister would have really ramped up the shit with you.

@user8800 thank you. Yes, there's a definite grooming pattern there. Very dodgy.

It's funny with the grief, I feel for mm as it’s complicated fir him, but for me I genuinely feel nothing. I disliked her intensely. I never had a good feeling from her, something ‘off’, but the last three years have been hell. But over now. I'm definitely going to be doing more stuff for myself. It's like our lives have been on hold and I was NC with her.

I'm so sorry you've had a bad week. Your friend must be very glad of having someone she can talk to as some people refuse to think that there are grim family dynamics. But it's knackering.

Take care. Xxxxx

@MonkeyfromManchester glad it went well but very pleased twat face gb got the bums rush from the pub, what a wanker.
@Sicario never ceases to amaze me that despite all the shit these people put us through we still feel for them! They never gave a bollocks for our feelings and yet we still sympathize. Thank God we are not like them but I do think life must be easier if the only person you think about is yourself.

MonkeyfromManchester I'm glad that it is over and GB won't be around to annoy you anymore. I aim for a quiet life and I expect you would like that too. My best wishes to Mr M.
I'm struggling with an attack of sinusitis which has laid me low for two weeks. I suspect a course of antibiotics will be needed to clear it.
Take care all.

@MonkeyfromManchester I hear you! I feel exactly the same about my late MIL...she wasn't a monster like The Hag, I just didn't like her. She was two-faced and treated Mr Rider like her faux husband ...even though Mr Rider's father was still there.

It's nearly 6 months on since she died unexpectedly. Mr Rider would be doing a lot better if his father didn't keep threatening suicide - seriously - and using poor Mr Rider as his counsellor. It's all 'me me me', no acknowledgement that Mr Rider has lost his mother...his father is a control freak narc who treated MIL like shit while she was alive and is now giving an Oscar winning performance as the grieving widower...

I've been no contact with both inlaws for nearly a decade. Already Mr Rider is dropping hints about me seeing his father - 'Oh he understands you a lot better now' etc. Load of fucking bollocks. The judgemental cunt can go to hell. As I told Mr Rider (after I'd had few drinks) his mother's death has changed nothing for me regarding his father. Unless I get a full genuine apology from his father (more chance of me going to Mars) then I'm staying no contact.

@FreeRider god save us from the 'suicide club' my mum was always threatening to drink her whole bottle of oramorph! [For 10 years ] It was so tiresome, none of us cared, so it was just empty drama. It's so manipulative and disingenuous. Hopefully your firm NC will rub off on mr rider.

Maintain no contact FreeRider.

Mr Rider seems mired in fear, obligation and guilt. He’s also received the Special Training from his parents and now he puts his dad’s needs first with his own dead last. His inertia here hurts him as well as you.

Ive recently realised that most people around me actually don’t like me, or want the best for me. The total opposite of my feelings for them.

I read into narcissism during covid and it was a genuine lightbulb moment regarding my ExBF. However, during my journey of enlightenment, I also realised my DM is a horrendous N. I have long NC months of peace, but also months of Grey Rock (see, I know all the lingo !), with drama/ abuse coming left field on a reasonable regular basis.

However, I also have issues with people at work (grievance recently upheld), and have noticed a lot of my friendship group is quite one-sided and hard work.

Topping this off with the ‘make sure history doesn’t repeat itself’, I have made my children’s home a haven of peace and kindness, yet they look to sabotage this more & more as they grow up. I am literally the squashed middle and wish I could just live on my own with my pets.

Does anyone else feel similar?
Do you think once we recognise the signs we can’t unsee ?

@JellyWellyBoots

You are TOTALLY allowed to change your mind about the dog. The emotional blackmail WTAF. You are not a dog kennel. Keep firm about this.

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand @Escapingafter50years @Parentalalienation @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau . @Jaichangecentfoisdenom
@AttilaTheMeerkat @binkie163 @flapjackfairy @Schneekugel

Thank you so much. Your support means such a lot. It has kept me sane and supported me to help Mr Monkey to a tougher stance on his abusive mother. Yep, a fiery place awaits. She's done SO much damage.
It was a grave in the pouring rain. I was glued to the radiator in the pub!

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand

Get well soon. X

@TheShellBeach

Much wine was drunk, but I played the game of “it's terribly sad” with a poker face.

@user8800 you would love my SIL.

@Loubelle70
Thank you very much. It's quite The Hag saga when you look over the history. Book closed. I want to support Mr Monkey with his complicated grief.
That is absolutely the way to think of it. You owe abusers nothing.

@Pearlyclouds
That is a nightmare. You do NOT have to take it on. It's emotionally and financially draining. Priority is you and your family.

@binkie163

Golden Boy actually said to Me Monkey when MM basically told him “take your very ill five year old daughter back to your hotel” and all the lads stood up to back up MM.
drumroll

“But things are just getting going”

It's a fucking wake FFS. The Stone Roses aren't going to be playing a gig, mate. He's such a dick. Yesterday - again - was just about him, his need to be centre of attention. Hag created that.

@FreeRider

Your inlaws sound like a right pair. I know you will stand firm. Your FIL probably expects you to wait on him hand and foot.

@Moaning5
Hugs to you. That sounds very tricky. Your people are here. Xxx

@MonkeyfromManchester is it bad that I REALLY wish you'd filmed that moment? They're so often in complete control - of our possessions, our futures, our mental health, everyone else's impression of us - and that is so totally amazing. I'd even pay for a re-enactment.