January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Mr Monkey and friends did brilliantly showing him where his priorities needed to be. Chances are he would have expected that poor child to still be in the pub at closing time.
Hoping that GB current wife might start to realise what an idiot he is and do something about it.

Things are quiet here. Survived Sunday without feeling guilty for the first time in several years that I wasn't making massive people pleasing efforts with the mother. So far no birthday card. That's been triggering the past couple of years.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau not bad at all! It was classic Golden Boy. He's just unbelievable.

@Parentalalienation i’m really glad you didn't feel bad about the Non-mothering Day. It's so triggering.

The poor kid would probably be there next year! Once upon a time, Mr Monkey wouldn't have been so assertive or Golden Boy would have punched him.

Current wife was picked up, I think, in the Philippines. She seems really young - well, she is, she's 26. Definitely under his thumb, she didn't dare ask him to go back to the hotel so she was just sat there in a room full of people she didn't know, his ex-wife and his kids were there! He doesn't give a toss about anyone. Not an ounce of empathy! Twat.

@MonkeyfromManchester there's a lot of it about.

I'm conflicted because I accidentally came across a strange and frightening wall poster today but I'm not actually sure my mother isn't on here.

Moaning you definitely can't unsee anything once you've learned it, good or bad.
wish I could just live on my own with my pets.
Others have fantasies of riches, grand loves and big houses, I had fantasies of a flat and a cat and a locked front door to keep everyone else out.

If it helps anyone in future, mother's day actually isn't. That's a commercialised construct dreamed up to make us buy shite and had the added bonus of making downtrodden women feel appreciated for all of 5min. It's origin is Mothering Sunday, a Christian day for you to return to your home town to visit your "mother church" you attended as a child. It's got bugger all to do with our mothers really.

It's the day of the funeral. The dog is being picked up at 1pm.
I'm preparing myself for my sister to ignore me and make it clear how much I have hurt her by rehoming the dog.

I know deep down I'm making the right decision.

@JellyWellyBoots you are making the right decision xx

Dear @JellyWellyBoots (with your lovely name), I have been lurkily lurking here and I have to agree - you sound like you are doing the best thing for the doggo. You were surely in a state of turmoil at the time, so taking your time for the dust to settle before making the final, considered decision is much better than doing something under pressure, then second-guessing yourself.

Like the Trolls in Frozen sing: 'People make bad choices when they're mad or scared or stressed'! And it's always easier to say No at first then change it to a Yes than the other way around. 🙂

And @MonkeyfromManchester , I was on the hooks of tenter for the funeral on Wednesday, but it sounds like good people behaved well, bad people behaved badly, and Narcs always gonna Narc!

I imagine you'll be a bit emotionally knackered for a bit, slowly releasing the tension you've been holding... and if you're anything like me, lots of other little details from the day will be sifted up into your memory as you start to unclench and review it at your leisure... The advice to look after yourself as well as Mr Monkey is spot on.

The same will go for you, @JellyWellyBoots . Wishing you strength for today, and Happy Decompressing afterwards!

@JellyWellyBoots
Yes love and positive thoughts to make it through the day x

I think it'll be a challenging day in many ways, @JellyWellyBoots so I'm wishing you strength to get through it.

@JellyWellyBoots Good luck for today. You are definitely making the right decision about the dog - ignore your sister, she's not the one who has to live with it.

Thanks to @AttilaTheMeerkat and @MonkeyfromManchester ... I've managed to stay no contact with my own father for nearly 35 years, no way on Earth am I dealing with FIL. As I said to Mr Rider 'I wouldn't put up with that narc shit from my own parents, what makes you think I'm going to take it from yours?'

Barely 2 weeks before his mother died Mr Rider was saying how it was awful the way his father treats his mother, that she should have left him when Mr Rider went to university (MIL had an affair instead) she would have be far happier...that's all been forgotten now, I keep hearing how happy FIL made MIL etc. Hard to listen to, I'm really struggling to keep my mouth clamped shut.

Hard to listen to, I'm really struggling to keep my mouth clamped shut.

Oh yeah, @FreeRider - hard sometimes, but the wisest course! Sometimes they're just looking for you to contradict them so you can be an 'argument chew toy' for them to work their feelings out on... and sometimes they need to be revisionist to try and deal with their feelings and regrets... Either way, staying out of it and protecting yourself is best achieved by a canny silence... 🙊

Thinking of you @JellyWellyBoots I hope it goes well. You don't need this extra load of selfish, entitled nonsense from your sister. Keep to your resolve. You are a person with her own rights and wishes, NOT someone who runs a dog’s home. Take care. X

@Compash

I'm exhausted. I couldn't do anything yesterday. Today I've done 90 minutes work. I'm going to stop sitting at my desk and go and read a book.

Argument chew toy 🤣 is the best description ever if what it's like to have to deal with these people. The role created for you. The role to be BINNED.

@FreeRider

What you're seeing is the rewriting of history, of course. Bereavement makes it happen. It's regret or guilt triggered, I think. Regret over ‘i wish my history had been different’. Of the guilt you've been filled up with by abusers.

Keep your guard up. Your FIL - cause he loves a bit of drama - will be stirring it. He needs a victim and someone to blame. Not going to be you.

Mr Monkey has guilt over Xmas and us not spending it with The Hag. I gently reminded him that she had been absolutely horrible to me before Xmas screaming shit at me in a hospital ward (the mask was very much OFF) and I was NOT spending any kind of Xmas with her. He agreed with that then and does, to be fair, know it was the right choice. I think he regrets she was a shit mother and his family is fucked up. He doesn't, I think, believe he could have done more.

Remembering odd bits from the Hag’s funeral. Like flashbacks.

The one friend the Hag was an ex nun who'd been a missionary in some terrible war torn bit of the world. She - Good Catholic Nice Lady (GCNL) - took the Hag on as a project. You've got to keep your hand in with a disaster zone, I suppose.

She'd invite her over for a coffee and listen to the pity party. GCNL was at the hospital bedside and did prayers and went to see the Hag’s body (weird).

At the bedside, it was all very nice. Very civil. “Lovely to meet you, monkey”

She gave me a bit of a sharp look at the funeral and I thought ‘oh yes, you got the nasty daughter in law story, I don't suppose the Hag outlined the emotional and physical abuse she doled out throughout her life. No, I thought not.’

Not arsed. I may go up in flames. Or I may not. Probably not.

Mr Monkey did a Twat Son debrief with Slave Son brother earlier. Hilarious.

Slave Son is a man of few words - unsurprisingly, as his mother The hag just screamed at him - and he's not got much emotional awareness (well, he has, it’s just VERY VERY bottled up) and he remarked again on Twat Son being a self-involved twat and how not only did Sister In Law chat to his Wife Number Two but she made a huge fuss of his little girl, she was picking her up, cuddling her AND INTRODUCING HIDDEN WIFE NUMBER TWO AND SECRET LOVE CHILD TO PEOPLE.

I missed all that as I was necking Guinness elsewhere.

God, SIL, she's brilliant. GENUIS. She was determined not to be portrayed as toxic ex-wife - she never was - scowling in the corner and everyone went away from the wake thinking ‘isn’t she a lovely woman’, ‘poor wife number two and daughter lumbered with that twat’ and ‘yes, Twat is a Twat.’

His ex-wife playing with his daughter and his sons refusing to be anywhere near him. His family keeping a wide berth. Embarrassing.

The Hag loved divide and rule and schisms so that would have really fucked with her head. There was no rehabilitation of GB. His position as Family Twat is in concrete and lit up in neon.

He doesn't, I think, believe he could have done more

@MonkeyfromManchester
I do hope he manages not to dissuade himself from that position.

I missed all that as I was necking Guinness elsewhere

That made me lol.
Along with the wine, you must've had a sore head (for many reasons) the next day.

@TheShellBeach he needs to hang on to that thought big time. She just wasn't a good mother. There are no excuses. She knew what she was doing.

God, I think I've still got the hangover! I'm exhausted.

Just had great gossipy phone call with SIL.

This reveals her ex in an even shinier light..

Apparently, Twat Son disappeared on Wife Number Two for a spell when the daughter was still a small baby. She was in the Philippines and he’d gone back to Scotland for a ‘business trip’. Missing in Action for a couple of months.

Wife Number 2 got in touch in desperation with one of Twat Son’s based in Scotland friends as she’d not heard from him and had no money.

Friend hadn’t heard from him either so got in touch with SIL to see where Twat Son was.
‘How the hell should I know.’

Wife number two was forced to sell belongings to support herself.

I imagine when that relationship goes the way of all others, there will be another disgarded and abused family.

Mind you, SIL did say: ‘well, he's 60 now, looks really rough so he’ll need a wife for caring duties.’

And

‘I was lucky. I had a comparatively wealthy family in my home country who could support me and qualifications to get a job. He's obviously picked someone who isn't so fortunate. Cynical bastard.’

Love that woman. The dickhead thought he'd snared a bimbo!

@MonkeyfromManchester I feel the need to share that as I logged in to read this thread just now, I got a pop-up advertising something about Hags and Misogyny and the Middle-Aged Woman, which may be related to this: https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/hags-misogyny-and-the-middle-aged-woman/
Talk about targeted advertising

I was right - my own sister ignored me during our fathers funeral, so I decided to head home & not go to the wake that I paid for. I'm getting texts and calls asking me to come to the wake because 'your sister really needs you'. Are they for fucking real?

I was in tears in the car all the way home.
I'm not sure what she's been telling her friends about me but their greeting before the funeral began was filled with hate.

Of course if I ever said this to her out loud she would try to convince me it's all in my head as she always does.

Oh no. What a terrible thing to do to you.

I'm so sorry.

You did the right thing.

You did what you needed to do and you were strong to choose to walk away with dignity. Ignore the flying monkeys - it’s a waste of your breath engaging.

I hope you feel satisfied and proud of yourself in this tough emotionally heightened situation.

I have to endure a similar situation next Wed and I will think of you - walking calmly and coolly away from baiting and drama.

I'm pretty certain I didn't imagine her blanking me. She comforted all her friends, yet couldn't look me in the eye.
The dog came too, & the first thing she said was 'oh god she needs a good brush'.

I'm getting constant 'she needs her big sister tonight' what the actual fuck is happening.

It's fucking mind games & it it wasn't for this thread i would have convinced myself by now I'm the one who went off in a strop and decided to sulk. It's so toxic & I feel physical sick and anxious.

They are her friends not yours. Block every single one of them numbers and delete all the messages. You don't owe them your time or a reply or any headspace.

@JellyWellyBoots - feeling physically sick and anxious is a sure sign that it's not you, it's them. Your body is telling you loud and clear not to engage. I agree with Schneekugel about deleting and blocking every number associated with her flying monkey friends.

Blocking people can feel brutal but it makes a huge difference. View it like removing splinters: they're painful while you have them, and forgotten as soon as they're removed.

You're sister will be wanting to bait you back in to her drama triangle. I fell for this so many times in the past before I realised my Toxic Sister is poison personified.