Is this abusive? H and DC

[westofnarnia]

Got home tonight after the millionth episode of 'd' H sulking on a nice outing with the dc and i feel incredibly bleak. I would really appreciate a sense check on what happened. I have been in therapy for a while trying to decide whether our marriage is over for several reasons. One of the main ones being how he cannot rein in his moods around dc, and how I have become accustomed to walking on eggshells.

We went out for dinner at his suggestion after dc had a long school day (start at 8, finished afterschool at 5.30). dc is 9 and i suspect becoming a little bit hormonal as she is more emotional these days). Everything seemed fine then we started talking about the Narnia audiobooks dc is listening to that she got for xmas, and i inadvertently gave a 'spoiler' that involves some death, about the last book (sorry-- i dont want to give a spoiler again!) Dc got upset that this death happened and got a little bit teary, i felt terrible, but it opened a good conversation about how CS Lewis was religious and so believed in God and the afterlife and this inspired many of his books, and also that children's books were a little different in the old days perhaps because they were written during/after WW2 when children had to be more comfortable with scary ideas like death (I'm a historian and dc loves history so we do tend to get into these chats.)

Meanwhile H is there and i can tell a sulk is coming on. He's pissed off dc has acted this way, wont get involved in the conversation, tells dc to stop crying and 'acting ridiculous' and says she's being 'a baby'. When her food comes he's still pissed off and tells her she is eating 'like an animal' (she wasn't.) Then in front of her he said to me 'she's ruining this'. I stuck up for her which tends to make it worse. He walked off in front of us all the way home and has just told me that he's not pissed off and I'm the one acting weird.

Writing it out, i know it sounds bad. And it is. But it is also very normal for him. He's had scenes like this on holidays and meals out and at home and when his mood takes over he can't rein it in for dc or me. Often leads to a blowout argument which i try and diffuse if dc is there but he will then shut the door to our room and raise his voice/swear anyway. He cannot tolerate normal dc behaviour. When she was a toddler he would get angry if she was afraid of the dark or if she acted crazy during a long movie. We have clashed over it so many times. He has no patience. Even his mum tells him 'she's just a kid'. He is too strict when i'm not around and i dont really like leaving them together for that reason sometimes. I was out for 2hrs working the other day and by the time i came back he had confiscated her nintendo because she didn't get dressed fast enough.

He has a lot of resentment toward me because i had a short emotional affair which i confessed to quickly, in a very dark time in our marriage during covid when we had a separation, and i know this and i have apologised so many times but i now just think we might be done. I am tired of him ruining a nice evening out or whatever. Me and dc had the chat about the book, moved on, and had a nice dinner. He chose to seethe and get more worked up.

This isn't right, is it?

I'm going to suggest that the way he is towards his own DC is some sort of issue he has to do with his own childhood.

For me, I'd say - you get to the Doctor's and into the therapy right now to work through your obvious issues that's making all our lives difficult, and you move out while you work on yourself or we're done right now and I'm filing for divorce.

He's really damaging her right now. This is her childhood. You sound very balanced and that's probably because you had a secure childhood? But your DD isn't getting the same.

You're setting her up for a lifetime of being treated like shit by men - that's the kind of stuff I'd be levelling at him.

@roses321 thanks for sharing that - H also does all the cooking funnily enough and he holds this up as what he does for us. though he does nothing else and i do all cleaning, laundry and life admin and have learned not to ask him for help. he will leave his dirty clothes next to the laundry basket, he cleaned the toilet for the first time ever at the start of this year. I know i have resented that. But that feels almost insignificant next to the other stuff.

He always says he loves me and us, but what does he do to show that? He is always saying i dont show him it enough even if I plan days out/holidays, get him thoughtful gifts, tell him i love him. He basically cooks and he goes to work and sits with dc in the house if i need to pop out for some me time. He does suggest nice things like the meal out then decides to spoil them.

I slept on the sofa last night (partly by accident as i stayed up late to avoid a row with him at bedtime which he frequently starts if theres tension) and he was pissed off about that too. I hurt my toe badly this morning and he barely looked up. In the argument he brought in this course i have applied for, which would be great for my career and possibly getting back into the arts again, but might require us to move. He was using it as an example of how i control everything in our lives. But we moved to this city for his job, i pointed out, and now his job has a policy where you can work from anywhere - then he was like 'we moved because you wanted to do that'. Its like he thinks i am this shitty, controlling person so he is justified in his anger. And the affair always comes up sooner or later. Ughhh it feels good to get all this out.

End it now, your poor little girl being derided and picked on by this utter tool. She’ll be so much happier living just with you, in a small place with less money but with just love and support, and care. Fuck that guy.

Even if dc was an absolute nightmare, which she is not, this wouldnt be an ok way to talk to her, right? I cannot imagine other dads i know doing this.

if we left, our income would be about a quarter of what it is now and we would have to move into 1 bed flat or move very far away back to family

Is this the reason you are going to give your child when she asks why you stayed with him for so long?

Trust me when I say, she would rather live in a one bed flat with little money but in a peaceful home with a parent who loves her.

Respectfully, shit advice.

He's not going to listen. Why on Earth would he listen when he knows exactly what he's doing. His mindset is one of arrogance and entitlement. The entitlement to make OPs life hell, and her daughters (it isn't his daughter).

Also, if a man is happy to yell, shout, scream and sulk I would advise op to be very careful because when you threaten them with leaving they are likely to up the ante and that could include physical violence. Absolutely do not threaten him outright. Leaving can be very dangerous and whatever he thinks is ok now, he will likely think it's ok to step it up if he threat of his life being upended is there.

You cannot reason with these men, they aren't going to work on themselves or go to therapy - that's a laugh. They think what they're doing is fine. They see OTHER people as the issue. They know what they're doing, often they are lovely to extended family, colleagues and friends and then they turn when the doors are closed - that alone is indicative enough that they know what they are doing.

If you take away the only dad figure your daughter has ever known, you will be doing her an enormous favour by the sound of it.
I'm in my 50s now, but my DF was emotionally abusive to me and my brother as children and it's had a massive negative impact on our lives. Even now I remember being criticised for using my fork like a shovel (I still don't know what that actually means) breathing too loudly at the breakfast table, and being accused of lying about things I wasn't lying about. Like your husband, he would also laugh at us when we were upset, especially if we were crying because of him, due to being smacked for eating a sandwich at a friends house for example. It was totally bewildering, because we never knew what the rules were and it got worse as we got older.
When I got spots as a teenager he would hoot with laughter "Ooh look here comes spotty Muldoon!". I expect this kind of thing will happen to your daughter as she gets older.
My brother took his own life in his 20s and I totally blame my father. I think if we had come from a nurturing family things would have been different, but we didn't, we came from a parent that derided and mocked us and so we had no-one in our family to confide in or talk about anything with. It felt very lonely, even though my mother wasn't like him, we felt we couldn't confide in her, because she would possibly tell him so we lost trust in our mother too. He truly made us feel like dirt and that we didn't matter, despite being a "good provider". I wish to God my mother had left him and taken us with her when we were young and we had gone to live in my Gran's spare room.
Leave FGS ASAP, for the sake of your daughter.

Protect your daughter by leaving, the only potential reason to stay would be to protect her from having to see him without you but he isn’t her bio dad therefore doesn’t have rights. He sounds nothing like a father figure and it sounds like he has been emotionally abusive for years.

I hate the final Narnia book not only for what it does with the train but for how he treats Susan. It upsets me now so mine only read the first 6 at 9

People will think i am nuts to leave him. He isnt physically abusive, he comes over ok to friends (though my family dont like him as have witnessed his sulks), he has a good job and we have a nice life. Im the one who had an affair, im 'the difficult one' and people will think im crazy to leave as a single mum in my 30s who gets no support from dc bio dad. And im afraid i will have a breakdown if i leave which is what happened when we separated before. Im afraid i will just blame myself and regret it, or go back. It feels safer to do nothing. But i am just so stuck on thinking about dc last night. He still maintains it was abnormal for her to be upset at the meal. He said 'she acts like a baby all the time'. She doesnt, she is a sensitive kid who tbf has to live with his moods. She wet the bed last year when we were having an argument in the other room and i should have left then. I am terrified of being a 'bad mum' and failing her ever since she was born, but it has come true anyway. And i still feel like, if i smoothed things over, if i 'listened' to H more about her, or was less passionate about sticking up for her every time, my marriage would be OK, and he would be nicer to us. But thats not true, is it? He controls his own behaviour.
I know i sound a bit mad.

@Quartz2208 agree, i dont like it either, but i thought dc had already got to the train bit as she has the audiobooks on at bedtime. Tbh i never thought it would upset her like that but she does love those characters. I tried to make her feel better about it as i said in my op and i think it helped but it wasnt the best thing for me to say anyway.

You say you don't want to destroy the family and remove the father figure from DD's life, however lack of a father figure is better than an abusive one.

Playing a few games and feeding a child doesn't make you a good parent, it makes you a babysitter at best. Parenting is emotional support, encouragement, teaching, he provides absolutely none of that.

With your update that he's not her bio dad, I'd leave, he'll fade away out your lives and your lovely wee girl can grow up happy and confident.
Do not sacrifice your child's happiness for this nasty bully.

I’m sorry but putting your poor child through this for a man that is not her father makes you as culpable as he is. What a dreadful way to “parent”. Do better for fucks sake.

For the comment about her having to see him unsupervised. From my experience, that would be far better than her mother staying. Because her mum staying says 'your father must be right to treat you this way'. It says 'I choose him over you'. It says 'this is the normal template for a marriage relationship'.

I can only speak as the grandchild of an abusive person and for me the worst thing was how that person used my mother against me. Eg: telling her I was a bad child. Because even when I came to understand that perhaps my grandparent just wasn't a good person and that wasn't a reflection on me...there was always the element of, 'well why can't my mum come to the same conclusion and get us away from here?...maybe I am bad...maybe it IS me'. And 'what if my mum starts to think I am bad because of what this person says?'.

Not to mention, you start to feel responsible for protecting your mother from the abuser. And so sad that you can't. Just stuck there watching the mother you love, slowly become a husk of herself.

My grandparents was often OK when it was just me and her together...sometimes we'd have a nice day...but when my mum came back she'd for example, suddenly tell her what a naughty child I'd been. They use you as an audience to further hurt your child.

When he badmouths her to you, she is terrified that you will think she is bad. That's what she is going through right now.

And yes, she might still love her dad. She might not have realised he is a massive bellend yet. That she isn't the one who is in the wrong. That can take time. But you can show her that he is wrong to treat her the way he does. By leaving him. Just make it clear to her you are leaving him because he's not nice and treats you badly so she won't think it's her 'fault'. But she will see you setting a healthy example for the treatment we do and don't accept from others.

She may even be very releaved. To have someone else concur that his behaviour is not ok...that she isn't the problem.

He's not her dad so you can totally protect her from him by having as he has no rights to see her. Please do the right thing. He's abusive.

You said initially that he can't control himself but he can, or he would be like this with everyone. He isn't though. He does it very deliberately at you and your daughter because he's a vile abuser.

You can do this. You'll be better off without him.

Please put your daughter first and leave. If you asked him to leave would he go? Is the house in both names? You'll probably be ok moneywise, you'll be entitled to certain benefits and he'll have to pay maintenance.

Ironically, OM i had the emotional affair with, could see H was abusive to us both and as someone from a very abusive childhood himself, he was saddened by me staying. I sometimes think what would have happened if i had left then. Someone listening to me and validating my experiences hasnt really happened since then (except in therapy) and it almost gave me the strength to leave. So thanks to everyone who has posted here. This thread has helped me so much in a short space of time.

And that i would be taking away the only dad figure dc has ever had or may ever have

That's a reason to leave, not a reason not to. If the only dad figure she has is belittling, unkind and sulky, that's what she will look for in a partner. That will feel like home to her.

Please make a different home, one with love and calm.

I think you really need to accept that this is not just 'not good' for your daughter, it is bad. Every negative interaction is going into her bones, is permanent for her. As someone who grew up in similar circumstances, I can categorically state that a toxic but present father is not better than an absent one.

@Turtletunes I’m so sorry about your brother. I hope op reads your post and pays attention to the damage that can be done to a child.

OP you keep making excuses for him .
Cant you see how this is damaging your DD ?

@Turtletunes @Pinkbonbon and everyone who has shared personal experience... It means more than you know. I am so sorry turtle for your db. Your story could help change my dc life for the better though. So thank you, truly.

This.

You couldn't be training her harder for an abusive relationship as an adult if you tried.

She'll feel like a man name calling, bullying, mocking and making her sad is what a man 'should' be. And she'll end up with someone who does all those things.

You need to put her first now.

He won’t have to pay maintenance- it’s not his kid!

I do have a remote job and earn just over 30k which isnt a lot in our very expensive city for 2 people but if we moved i think it would be better, i am just worried about moving dc from her school and friends, but it is something i am coming to terms with as its not like i am unemployed and have no money of my own so that shouldnt stop me leaving, it just would be a lifestyle adjustment and i have always worried about money a lot having grown up poor.