Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

I should also add that I grew up in a house with 2 emotionally immature parents. My mum would let me defend her to my dad who pushed me, grabbed me, and got me in a headlock on more than one occasion. When I was a stroppy teenager.

Men laying their hands on me in anger was thus not the red line that it should have been, and I stayed in a relationship with my ex H for 21 years instead of leaving him the first time he pushed me, 1 year into our relationship.

I think you should have ended your marriage years ago. Ex H never hit me again after he gave me a black eye in 2015 (he pushed and smashed though) but abuse is the fleck of shit that ruins the Michelin starred meal. I don’t think you can ever come back from it.

How does this woman manage to have 2 jobs without losing it?

I really wanted to comment on this thread but it's hard for me as I have had a similar problem with my DD so it's a bit close to home. Luckily we are not still with her Dad but that's the source of the violence. I took a zero tolerance approach and did big consequences for DD. My DD is a lovely girl but I had to help her be able to function as an adult. The biggest change I made in dealing with her was to stop feeling sorry for her. I had to stop understanding her motivation and just deal with what she had done wrong and act accordingly. Respect for myself, respect for my calm home is a priority. I'm not going to tolerate anything less as frankly I don't deserve it and neither do you.

I really don't think you can fund her to go - but not for reasons I have seen so far.

There are a lot if replies, and I apologise if I have missed something.

Have you thought about inflicting this teenage powder- keg on another family in a foreign country??? If she kicks off like that with people who don't know her as you do- I wonder what the Mexican police would do if she assaults someone? Its in her best interests NOT to go - sounds like she needs help. Good luck and very best wishes to you. But really she shouldn't go.

I think the most worrying thing about your posts is the notion that your daughter is ‘not in control’ of her own response to words, events and people. Mexico is a one off event and in the scheme of things is far less important than the issue of her emotional, violent and very destructive behaviours. You have listed all her wonderful qualities, but something is very badly wrong and it doesn't seem to be confined to her relationship with her Dad. Her siblings must be very distressed by these incidents, her boyfriend sounds incredibly tolerant of her, and if she was a young man rather than a young woman, there would be a million red flags being held up. So whatever her past, and whatever has influenced her for the good or the bad, she’s entering adult life whilst acting out at a much younger age and it has been going on for a long time. I don't know what is the ‘right’ compromise re Mexico, I think that is a difficult one, because you and your husband have to agree on that strategy, but AFTER Mexico what then? Imagine the Mexican holiday didn't exist, what do you think needs to be addressed? What should be the CONSEQUENCES of the most recent incident for everyone in the family?

Stand by your husband. Distance yourselves from her, at least for a while.

@Endoftheroad12345
Doesn’t matter what she did - he’s the adult,
seriously? she's assaulted her dad on at least 5 occasions but that doesn't matter? She's an adult too, what would you say to your son if he said his female partner was assaulting him? would you excuse her? blame him?
Women cannot be excused for using violence.

Because understanding why someone is the way they are is different from justifying their behaviour. Violent/abusive men are rightly condemned, no matter the tragic backstory they may have - case in point being OP’s DH, who like his daughter has also been formed by his own experiences in childhood.

Someone can be both a victim and a perpetrator, the former doesn’t cancel out their responsibility for latter.

I think the most worrying aspect is that the OP freezes and doesn’t have a voicein her relationship or within the family.

This thread has shown that there are different ways and approaches to this, personally for me some serious therapy and looking at a potential physical hormonal cause.

then if the DH in his role associate called head of the household doesn’t let anyone have a voice due to his outbursts is it any wonder that hidDD(who is very similar) only form of communication has been to mirror and copy

both Need to take responsibility here

@pikkumyy77

even if she has PMDD it would not excuse or allow for violence.

You are about as wrong as us humanly possible to be.
The bastard needs to be thrown out.

I feel think will be my daughters’s future. Thank you so much for those who’ve commented. I will read the thread with great deal.

Your husband is right to be angry. He imposed a more than fair punishment for your daughter's unacceptable behaviour and you have taken his authority as a father in front of your daughter. Discipline always comes first, regardless of what time of the year it is, and this is the real reason for your daughter's issue controlling her anger: you're too soft and too forgiving with her, and by doing what's easier you're aggravating the problem and causing harm to your daughter. Do you think her BF will want to live with someone like that? You need to urgently correct your daughter's behaviour or no one will want to be anywhere near her. You haven't even saved this christmas as everyone is still upset anyway. Do the right thing and back your husband in this. And stop blaming him for how your daughter acts, it's the lack of discipline and consequences that has caused this.

@0MammaBear0 true HOWEVER the father set this example.... this is the trouble OPs DD is now 18 and this has been going on years. OP has other kids did you miss that part? Can you imagine the other kids having to witness this carry on and it's Xmas too? Sorry but I would sling then BOTH out DD and DH. It's not fair

*Because understanding why someone is the way they are is different from justifying their behaviour. Violent/abusive men are rightly condemned, no matter the tragic backstory they may have - case in point being OP’s DH, who like his daughter has also been formed by his own experiences in childhood.

Someone can be both a victim and a perpetrator, the former doesn’t cancel out their responsibility for latter.*

That is simply not true as the infinite care that many disregulated children—male and female—Are offered make clear. This is s very young person. There is a latency period here within which she has a very good chance of turning her life around. But the first thing thst needs to happen is for her mother snd other people who care about her to get a good handle on what is wrong.

Could you attempt to reset the situation -somewhat- by refusing to adopt your usual position as peacemaker and before anything starts, tell them all, in as stern a voice as you can manage, that you will not tolerate any bad behaviour, no shouting, kicking off or anything else...and that everyone WILL be civil if not pleasant...and that things will not be dealt with, not even discussed, until after Christmas. It might hopefully buy you a few days peace, plus it'll put the warring parties on the back foot/on notice that you have had enough!

Your husband has no right to be angry. He should be ashamed of the home he has created for his children.
I cannot cannot cannot fathom how u allow this man to be in your lives.
Your poor children
You as parents have created this. You alone are to blame.

And as for the bullshit that discipline comes first. Jesus christ what kind of fucked up notion is that.
Why have some people got such shit parenting skills.

What isn’t true? That she’s an adult well above the age of criminal responsibility and thus responsible for her own actions?

I don’t disagree that she needs help, but ‘help’ doesn’t mean having her actions excused, and nor does it mean failing to hold her account for fact she’s assaulting people. She’s ’lucky’ that it’s her father and mother she’s been violent towards, because if she does it to anyone else she could easily find herself in legal trouble or worse.

The last thing she needs to be doing is losing control in Mexico, because no matter her issues she won’t be treated gently if she does. If she lashes out at the wrong person she could very easily find herself having a gun pulled on her.

Your daughter sounds like an absolute twat

Her Behaviour sounds like Borderline personality disorder. My sibling has it and our home during her teenage years was horrific, tiptoeing around her moods, she’s now mostly LC or NC with the family. As a sibling I feel let down by my parents not dealing with her behaviour and also tiptoeing around her.

Your DD is abusive, I’m amazed she still has friends, get her counselling but stop excusing her toxic behaviour, in your shoes I might consider not having her home at Christmas this year, I think her violence warrants that, your other DC may thank you for it.

OP, I hope you can find some good therapy for your dd and she learns to control her rages.

All the people condemning the father, seem to overlook the fact that he did seek out therapy and is a much better person now. Yes, his behaviour in the past probably contributed to his dd's problems, but credit where credit is due, he went to therapy and worked on himself. Which we hope the dd can do, before she hurts anyone else.

He should be out of the home.
He got help? Big fucking deal.

Too little too late
Damage is long done.

I've re-read the situation that happened and I'm really shocked at your daughter's behaviour when she didn't let her dad work. Also, the fact she was screaming at her boyfriend. If I were her boyfriend I would dump her. If he was my son I'd advise him to dump her. Nobody should be treated like that.

When people talk about autism and masking and meltdowns, I didn't think this was the same sort of thing. She came into the house ready for a fight. I thought autistic meltdowns were to do with feeling overwhelmed. Was her boyfriend simply disagreeing with her? He sounds like a pretty laidback guy and not the sort to start fights with her (especially knowing how she tends to react).

I wouldn't worry about her in Mexico - it sounds as though she can control herself when she wants to and she knows as well as us that she wouldn't want to end up in a Mexican jail. She also wouldn't want his parents to witness her behaviour - she can downplay it as long as they don't see it.

I think your husband has every right to say he won't pay for the ticket. It's not as though you have tons of money anyway. It's up to her if she goes, of course, but he can still just give her the same amount of money for university and give her £100 or whatever the other girls are getting for Christmas.

She can't kick the shit out of her parents and expect holiday money immediately afterwards. She has to see the repercussions of her actions and the holiday money comes far too soon after the assault for her to expect that.

The OP specifically said he didn't get therapy. He did it on his own. Which is probably why it hasn't worked - he's not as awful as he was but obviously still controlling, aggressive and uncompromising.