Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

It sounds like family therapy is long overdue. Are you really ok with your volatile daughter going to Mexico? Given her triggers and the volatile relationship with her bf, a foreign country would be the last place I would be comfortable with her being in.

She can’t go on like this and after her assaulting her father you can’t go back to acting that this isn’t a serious as it gets. She crossed a line, what’s to stop her crossing that line with someone other than her father. Does her bf’s family understand the true extent of her behaviour? Especially, towards their son?

Treatment has to be the priority not Mexico.

BPD is being reassessed as a diagnosis; it’s now thought to stem from undiagnosed autism, mainly in girls and women.

It is certainly true that BPD (or EUPD) is often given to women and girls in error when the issue is Autism or other issues - I see people like this all the time through work. But BPD is a very real thing and some people truly do meet this diagnosis. The fact that DD can control who she does this with pushes it more towards personality imo

Totally agree with this.
Your DD is out of control. You say she’s fine with BF but it’s only a matter of time before her rage and violence turns to him. She doesn’t feel secure enough with him to do it yet but once they’re married/ have a child she’ll turn on him, too.
I feel lots of sympathy for your daughter and how she’s ended up here but that doesn’t change that fact that she needs serious professional help before she assaults other people.

BPD is being reassessed as a diagnosis; it’s now thought to stem from undiagnosed autism, mainly in girls and women.

No. It's sometimes misdiagnosed autism, but sometimes not. No professional would say every woman who's been diagnosed BPD is really ASD. There are probably people diagnosed with ASD who really have BPD.

What some (often feminists) will say is BPD is usually a response to trauma (no one denies that) and it is often c-PTSD that has been misdiagnosed, or it is a response to trauma that should not be seen as a disorder in the trauma victim. I don't necessarily agree with that, just saying.

It could really be listed under PTSD symptoms as a type of PTSD, but that'd be really longwinded and unhelpful as they respond to different treatments.

I had an ex-friend with Borderline and she was effectively an evil person, but she was also a victim of childhood trauma (in her case childhood sexual abuse) for sure.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy Also, so far she's done ok at work and uni, but that could easily change if she fell out with someone there, a supervisor upset her, etc, or even if the work gets more stressful. Or her distress at something in her personal life could effect her ability to work or study.

She sounds like a spoilt dangerous brat op , to do that sort of violence to her own father is astounding !

She’s a young woman not long out of childhood who has witnessed and suffered years of raging from her father. A product of her home environment, this young woman needs support and therapy she should have been given years ago.

I'm just reading an article by a UK psychologist about how women are demonised as it's easier to shout "personality disorder" rather than recognise they are suffering from trauma. Easier to "other" and isolate them. Seems quite a popular idea on here too.

This.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy in your first post you said “no one is going to be hitting her”. Your H did hit her. Yes he was provoked but he is her father, he should have used only reasonable force to stop her harming herself or others, and/or removed himself from the situation.

When my 9 year old has normal squabbles with his sister and they get into push and shove scraps I tell him we don’t hurt each other in this house. He goes to pieces - sometimes hitting himself, saying he is going to grow up and be angry (aka violent) like dad. When I told the therapist about this behaviour she said this was an extremely concerning red flag that needed to be addressed and processed before it turned into self harming as a teenager.

Your daughter has had another 10 years of this behaviour being role modelled, of this environment being normalised.

Your H has zero insight into how his behaviour has directly contributed to her (severe) issues. If he did, he wouldn’t be coming over the big disciplinarian and talking tough consequences. Yes it’s fair enough she doesn’t get her plane ticket to Mexico paid for. But he is going beyond that in trying to stop her uni allowance - he is being a vindictive cunt. Because he got kicked by his daughter, who clearly has severe emotional and mental health problems due to the household she grew up in. He hit her back - is that not punishment enough?

You need to take a good hard look at how you have enabled this man’s abuse of your kids. Just bc he managed to stop the worst extremes of his behaviour “in recent year” doesn’t mean your DD (and other children) aren’t still carrying the trauma. Doesn’t mean he can’t lash out at any time - he just did.

P.S. I know why my ex H the way he is. He grew up with an emotionally disregulated mother (I suspect BPD) who also smashed plates and was emotionally neglectful, and a father with his own mental health issues with severe attachment issues (abandoned in an orphanage for the first year of his life).

To outward appear he’s they had a lovely affluent middle class life with all the trappings. His parents split when he was 23, an acrimonious end to an extremely toxic marriage to which my ex had a front row seat for his whole childhood.

I feel extremely sorry for the little boy he was, but he’s 46 now and has had ample opportunity to see therapy and address his childhood issues (God knows I’ve had to, as has DS at only 9!)

He’s an adult, he needs to sort himself out. I prioritised my marriage for far too long, to the detriment of my children.

I'm still reading.

In case anyone is interested in the practical update:

DH and I sat down and talked today. I told him that I support him in not funding DDs trip but I cannot support him trying to control her choices. I told him that he is correct to draw a line at physicality regardless of the reasons/backstory - that this is a deal-breaker and cannot be tolerated - and we are aligned there. I also told him that even though we'd discussed it in the past, we have not really ever talked properly about our culpability - his for the few years he was not in control and mine for not leaving him. I tried to explain how his ongoing need to be 'in charge' and his single-minded and frankly backwards, views on behaviour and emotions, were a problem and a definite and big factor in where DD finds herself. I also said that I agreed that he was not solely to blame - the other DC do not struggle in the same way. He did try to minimise the impact of 'the past', but I was firm that we can't move forward without being clear about how we got here. He did accept that he has exposed us all to things that were not reasonable and that DD is clearly carrying some trauma.

We also talked about the fact that DD is going to have to feel some consequences - for her own benefit - but that consequences have to be reasonable and come with a side-helping of support/healing. I have told DH that in the short-term, I believe he should apologise to DD for past behaviours, acknowledge her experiences and make a verbal comittment to always be her 'safe place' in the future. He agrees with this. There was a poster who talked about testing people's love/abandonment/pushing as hard as she can to see if people still stay - and this feels very close to what she is doing.

DD and DH had a brief cuddle and agreed a truce - at least for Christmas - with a view that we would discuss after Christmas where we go from here. Mexico talk is banned until then.

I have had a long chat with DD and have been very clear. Violence is not going to be tolerated - there will ALWAYS be a significant consequence. But help and support is now a priority.

I have told DH and DD that I think DD needs to see someone quite urgently to try and get a diagnoses - and whether that diagnoses ends up being 'just really pissed off' or 'spoilt and entitled' or 'completely traumatised' or 'BPD/ADHT/anything else' - that's what we deal with.

And that's where we are tonight. DD is currently downstairs playing cards with her BF, DBrother and DH. I am taking that as a win for now.

Thank you for all your contributions - even those that I said I was weak (i have been) or that I should kick DH our (perhaps I should have done it in the past - and if I had really understood the long-term impact, I would have I think). I don't think that there is anything to be gained by turning on him now. He has worked very hard to get to where he is and deserves a chance to be the best father he can be.

And to those that offered up personal stories and conditions to consider - thank you so much. Once Christmas is over and we start to look at getting DD some help, I will refer back to these often I am sure.

And finally - I don't believe we are anywhere near out of the woods. I know I am writing this like it's all 'wrapped up' but I am very aware that this is one good day and that there will be many bad days ahead, but I do feel I made some progress today for my family.

I even managed to do the Christmas Sainsbury Shop with DH without feeling utterly destroyed.

Great update OP. Sounds like some positive progress has been made. Keep on taking the lead and I think you can help steer your family to some harmony in the future. Hope you have a great Xmas.

I told him that he is correct to draw a line at physicality regardless of the reasons/backstory - that this is a deal-breaker and cannot be tolerated

I have had a long chat with DD and have been very clear. Violence is not going to be tolerated - there will ALWAYS be a significant consequence

In what way is the above being equally applied to the violence committed by her father when he slapped her? If reasons/backstory are immaterial where DD is concerned, surely the same applies to her father and he can't cry provocation. What is the "significant consequence" of his assault on her?

That update all sounds very positive!

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy what a brilliant update. I've been thinking about you and wondering you are, you've taken a bit of a hammering in this thread - especially in recent pages - and one thing that seems to have been missing is an acknowledgement that you have also suffered in this relationship. I do hope you're ok and that you will be making sure you take steps to protect and look after yourself too

That you can negotiate a truce like you have is testament, I think, to a strength which it seems you have grown over the years. Yes, there's been passivity, and yes you've compensated for your husbands approach, but the self awareness you've shown & willingness to listen to everyone's views, regardless of what they've been, I think shows a greatness of mind that few people have.

I wish you a really happy (and peaceful) Christmas and hope you will continue to seek support when you hit stumbling blocks. I also hope you won't crucify yourself over this.

If anyone can lead their family through this, op, I think you can. I hope your husband knows how lucky he is to have you

Clearly violence is tolerated when it’s your husband though

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy fantastic update. You are a wise and brave sausage and balanced things wonderfully. Well done. x

Your update sounds really positive! It is such a painful situation for all involved, but worse of all for you, stuck in the middle having to negotiate and handle everyone.
Wishing you the most peaceful Christmas possible and hopefully a constructive and healing resolution to the Mexico thing.

What a tough situation. To be honest, I’d be keeping the status quo with her trip and wouldn’t be implementing any consequences this time. I actually think you and your DH have been entirely unreasonable for a lot longer than the past few days. Your post makes it crystal clear your child has needed proper assessment and mental health supports during at least her adolescence. Supports and assessments you haven’t accessed for her. You also make it clear she has been exposed to trauma within her own upbringing and WANTS counseling… yet, you haven’t sought it out for her. Even your latest post about DBT asking how you would pick among the names raises serious questions about your level of motivation and willingness to do this…. If you can post on MN, you can post on your local area FB group asking for recommendations. Or you could just start visiting websites and making calls.

I’d be correcting those mistakes the minute she is back from her break. I’d work about 4 jobs if I had to in order to pay for it.

I’d definitely be looking at an ADHD assessment given the lack of behavioral control and what may be rejection sensitivity. Having her track her symptoms would also be beneficial. If there is any correlation with her cycle, PMDD may be a possibility.

Not being able to regulate emotions is a trait of adhd.

I think if your daughter has such issues you need to prioritise spending money on that over her going to Mexico.

as an adult she can self refer herself to her local MIND services. Or speak to her uni student support.

I would actually be bribing her and say she needs to do that as a consequence if she wants more cash from you.

also your younger children are chilled…or were afraid of your hubby’s outbursts when younger and quickly squashed their own emotions rather than learned to regulate them?

Not a criticism but more because I struggled with my emotions until we realised I had adhd. Unfortunately I yelled too much as a young parent. People comment on how polite my children are but I am actually concerned some of it has come from them wanting to avoid me yelling when they were younger.

My concern also is your husband’s response. My husband is not a placid man but there is no way he would raise his hand to our daughter even if she had of kicked him in the balls. Men who have been kicked in the balls tend to put their hands there not slap the person that takes a lot of force. He must have been thinking he would like to do it and getting kicked in the balls…he gave himself permission to carry out what was in his mind.

If I was you I would be going to the Sen board and asking people to post links to forms used in assessments so you can read more about the difference Neuro diversities to educate yourself. Three people in our house have adhd and we used three different companies for assessments - but the forms were all similar.
I would not personally go down the DBT route unless you have a good personal recommendation as it can be hit and miss from personal experience.
as a start do a family excerise for people to write a list of what is happening in their body as warning signs they are going to lose control of their emotions ie faster heart rate, feeling in chest etc - and encourage them to ask for space to regulate their emotions before they lose control. Your daughter gets physical - encourage her to dance when she is working herself up. She shouts - encourage her to burst into song as a release

Well done OP.

It is very hard to navigate these situations and it sounds like you have been a rock for both of them.

Good wishes for the future and I hope that your family can build on this and move together into a better set of relationships.

Look after yourself.

Op have you thought about using the right to choose pathway for a diagnosis. Can take 12 weeks but quicker than the NHS wait.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy you have navigated that extremely well so well done and hopefully you can have a family Christmas and move forward next year resolving some of these buried issues.

Wishing you and your family the best. You are an extremely strong woman and I hope you’re all on the road to healing.