Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

I just cannot imagine how an 18 year old can navigate this crap, she needs support and help. OP has said over and over again what a nasty bully her husband is and she should have left years ago, and now SHE'S worried how SHE is going to feel later? And how can she choose or find a therapist, it so hard for her (particularly as she's not followed up on any of the advice organisations/mental health helplines suggested).

She'll be back tomorrow saying her DD has left and she doesn't know where she is. I'd be scared shitless of that and telling the H he needs to leave if he can't control himself.

Well you can't stop her going, you said she has the money in savings right? I think it's fair not to pay for her flight but actively stopping her will come back to bite you i think. She is an adult after all. Sorry OP, sounds like a horrible situation. Maybe it just needs a cooling off period?

This with bells on. Also, supposing she unleashed this aggression on the wrong person in Mexico or elsewhere. They might not be as restrained as your DP.

This has to be a watershed moment. I can't believe you are considering not backing your DP?

It may be the case that he’s trying to prevent her from going to Mexico because he’s shit scared of the trouble she could find herself in if she loses control over there.

That is a real danger. Mexico can be lovely, but it can also be extremely dangerous. If she ‘loses control’ with the wrong person it could easily end very badly for her. It’s safest in the tourist resorts, but there’s still a cartel presence even in those.

Many wiser people than me have already posted, but FWIW here's my 2 cents...

Blame is irrelevant. How your daughter got to be how she is, is irrelevant. Blaming parents, blaming others, doesn't help HER. She is the one dealing with this now (ultimately, though it also impacts others) and she needs help figuring it all out.

Consequences DO matter but the punishment needs to fit the crime. As others have said, sometimes you can't control yourself and while she may not have been able to, she can't be rewarded for this behaviour. Does this ONE particular instance undo the other 360+ days of good? I don't think it does.

I would not be giving her the money right now and I would be sitting on it with some caveats. The caveats, for me, would be that she gets the help she needs and actively work on making things better (for herself and the rest of the family). Assessments, therapies, coping strategies, treatments... I think the family as a whole probably needs some counseling, individual and group. This will also benefit the bf and the trip as a whole.

I would word it to your husband that despite his many years of poor behaviour and poor choices, you did not divorce him, you gave him several chances... and he is X many years old. She is "only" 18 and barely an adult, yet he's ready to write her off. He needs to give her the same grace that the rest of you (including her) gave him.

Lastly, violence is not okay. He reacted but he did so proportionately... and you wouldn't want that to escalate from either of them. Now that she knows he'll hit back will she try and hit harder? They need to address this, BOTH of them, before this gets worse. She's 18 and time can heal, but it can also set things in motion that won't.

Good luck and Merry Christmas!

BF and family and they have planned and are texting me about it all the time so it feels urgent

Take the urgency away..no one can make a decision yet as emotions too high. You do seem fixated on the holiday - if it's fear that your daughter will kick off and ruin Christmas then so be it. Nothing needs to be done now. Give her a token present to open.

Both parents should be united on this. Get on with Christmas, refuse to discuss punishments/Mexico until after Christmas and when emotions have calmed. If your daughter kicks off because she doesn't have an answer about a holiday then it's her choice. She needs to accept consequences which might be the holiday is in jeopardy.

Your husband now needs to cool off and he should try to act normally for the sake of the other children.

Your daughter needs to get to a position where she is genuinely apologizing to her dad as a basic life skill is to repair damage to relationships.

OP your description of your daughter reminds me so much of me, although I'm a couple of decades older now. I grew up with a volatile parent who I just wanted to love me consistently, but they couldn't. Boundaries were crossed, unsayable words said and, unlike with your husband, there was a fair bit of slapping and terrorising too. I understood how adults should behave around children from my relationships with other adults / watching other parent-child relationships.

If your husband has crossed lines with your daughter and behaved poorly as a parent this isn't something that can be fixed easily or quickly. She will, knowingly or unknowingly, be testing him constantly seeing how far she can push him and whether he'll love her regardless. This behaviour has likely become a pattern in other close relationships too, that need to test and push - it's a classic insecure attachment style.

Your daughter needs therapy but most of all parents who are (to quote a Yogi teabag) constantly consistent and consistently constant. Your husband has a lot of work to do too if he wants her to trust him again.

Perhaps family therapy might be appropriate.

I wish her, and you all, the very best and think no good can come of withholding this holiday from her.

I wish her, and you all, the very best and think no good can come of withholding this holiday from her

Well it might save the bf a licking.

Sorry to be fascicious, but she is an abusive adult who likes to hit out at the people who love her.

DH is right, in a way, that she needs consequences but not the sort he is talking about. He needs to stop attempting to parent her. DD needs to move out. Just let her go and make her own way in the world. Let her sink or swim but DONT let her treat you like that.

She takes her position in the family for granted. But the world is cruel and she won't get unconditional love from anyone else. Better she learns what it is to be alone in this world sooner rather than later and has a chance to correct her character before she ruins her life.

Oh, and I don't buy this idea that she can't help her rages because the next day she was going on about how shocked she was he slapped her. Why would anyone be shocked by that given the circumstances? I'm sorry but she sounds indulged and spoilt.

So she can control her anger when she chooses to then!?

She is deliberately using anger to intimidate and control you-and then to provoking retaliation in order to then play the victim. It's all very manipulative. I would be very surprised if there is a biological cause for her behaviour; I think you are clutching at straws there.

You need to get her out of the house; this is not fair on you, your husband or your kids, who will be damaged by this shit show. Sorry you are going through this.

And whatever you do do not reward this behaviour by sending her on holiday to Mexico!

wow, you are excusing your DHs behaviour. You had to leave the house with the children regularly as he was so angry? My upbringing sounds similar to his, and you know what? As an adult I realised it was totally fucked up and the last thing I wanted to do was treat my children in the same way, I wanted to parent them the complete opposite.

i think she should be allowed to go.

I would not be giving her the money right nowand I would be sitting on it with some caveats. The caveats, for me, would be that she gets the help she needs and actively work on making things better (for herself and the rest of the family). Assessments, therapies, coping strategies, treatments... I think the family as a whole probably needs some counseling, individual and group. This will also benefit the bf and the trip as a whole.

This is a good idea from Sykadelic @MarmiteMakesMeHappy . You can say she can have the money if she gets help in the meantime.

@AnActualPlane Did you miss the bit where OP said the violent daughter was 18? They can't stop her from going she's an adult. The husband is rightly refusing to reward her bad behaviour by paying her airfare. The daughter has funds to pay for it herself. Read the thread before commenting.🙄

I did thanks. I read that he told her she couldn’t go and if she did fund it herself and go he would no longer pay for university? Which is a superset thing and I read that as trying to stop her going? How is stopping someone attending university a good thing?

Why are pps trying to blame anyone or anything other than the violent adult woman who has attacked her father on numerous occasions and yet he's expected to finance her holiday, it's actually laughable.
Imagine this was a son being written about, OP would be told to call the police and have him removed from the home.
But it's a female, she can assault and attack whoever she likes and she'll be diagnosed or made the victim.
Tell her to leave your house, stop excusing her abhorrent behaviour, she's an adult and she needs to understand her behaviour is unacceptable.

She would be stopping herself from going to university by chosing to spend the money on the trip. Again its about taking responsibility.

I think all right thinking people understand that the OP wants to fix things with her dd. But the dd has serious behavioural problems and paying for her trip to Mexico is not the solution.

OP, I don't think you can assume that your dd is not violent to her bf. That sort of behaviour is usually quite hidden and the victim always feels a mixture of guilt and shame.

Experience x

Her behaviour is totally unacceptable and whilst I agree there may be something underlying, it is still not acceptable to assault your parent(s) on multiple occasions.

I wouldn't be paying for Mexico, either. However, I wouldn't revoke her allowance , just the intended flight money.

I would repurpose the flight money for private therapy as this seems to be paramount.

I don't condone the violence on either behalf, although I think your husband was absolutely pushed to his limit by a massively disrespectful daughter.

It's your other children I feel for as I imagine she demands a lot of attention.

Wow - so many people prepared to condemn the daughter without hearing her side.

Also, please research PMDD. I have this and rage is a symptom, although I've never lashed out in this way I know some people do.

Borderline personality disorder is also another that sprung to mind - my mum has this and rejection in any perceived way is a trigger. It can cause rage as managing emotions is difficult.

These are possible reasons behind her behaviour but also, as someone who has one of them and also has a mother with one of them, I still don't think it's acceptable to become violent and then hold your hand out for a flight to Mexico.

I feel sorry for the boyfriend. If I was his mother, I'd be telling him to run like the wind away from her, I think she's dangerous. Imagine if the roles were reversed ...

Why so quick to throw sn 18 year old with a massive trauma history out with the trash. She does not have a diagnosis yet because the family has been cosseting and comforting the out of control father for years instead of spending the money to get this child evaluated. I second the posters who have suggested pmdd as I have treated s patient with it and the symptoms are quite similar. There are other good suggestions on this thread. I hope Op pulls up her docks and takes a therapeutic approach to her daughter. This will be most effective whether the eventual dx is ASD , PMDD, BPD, OR anything else. Diagnosis, treatment, not punishment and humiliation are the way forward.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy

My exH was (is) like your DH, and it sounds to me, like your DD.

Regular terrifying rages, smashing things, completely out of control. I would have to remove the kids - he would do it in front of them. He pushed & grabbed me, grabbed DS1 so hard he left bruises on his arm. He also gave me a black eye when DS was a baby. The incidents the kids saw didn’t involve him actually hitting - usually it was screaming and smashing. I left him in November 2022. DS was 8, he’s now 9, and DD was 4.5, now 5.5.

Both kids are completely traumatised by what they experienced, DS worse as he was older/ the eldest and tried to intervene. DD crawls under the couch when she hears raised voices, she is so scared. DS is in therapy and the therapist says he will need ongoing therapy to process what he has experienced which she called “as bad as it gets”. We come from a naice middle class home - we are both lawyers (ironically). I thought domestic abuse was something that happened to other people. Your kids grew up in an abusive home. I’m sorry to be harsh - mine have too. It’s a horrible thing to confront.

I don’t think you can under estimate the role your DH’s behaviour has played in creating your DD’s emotional dysregulation. Is she your eldest child? She probably bore the brunt of it and felt powerless as she saw him rage at you. I also suspect you are minimising just how bad your DH’s behaviour was. She probably doesn’t feel safe around him and the provocation is a weird way of testing his limits as she knows he will lose it and confirm her worse expectations about him.

Your dad (and your husband) should be a safe harbour. I am in a relationship with someone now who would sooner grow wings and fly to the moon before he would lay a finger on me or my kids, or smash something, or call me vile names - regardless of how badly I behaved.

Mexico is beside the point - your H is abusive. He hit your daughter and she has grown up in a house where she has seen him be abusive on multiple occasions. Doesn’t matter what she did - he’s the adult, he’s her dad. I told my kids when I left H that I would always be on their side. No one hits my kids.