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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Torn between DH and DD

700 replies

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 10:49

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
CormorantStrikesBack · 22/12/2023 17:59

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

That is unacceptable from your DH. He doesn't have to pay for her to go to Mexico but refusing to pay for her accommodation in an effort to force her not to go at all to punish her is petty, spiteful and controlling. It's logical but it's not reasonable. As you say, he's fixated.

I do agree with this. I totally get him not paying for the trip. But if she can scrabble the money together for it I think it’s harsh to say she still can’t go. Saying that would she be able to afford it? I found Mexico very expensive for spending money and the flights won’t be cheap. Excursions were like £80 a person and this was 5 years ago, a Starbucks was more money than in the uk. I get you don’t have to go to Starbucks or do excursions.

toddlermam · 22/12/2023 18:02

To be honest, I struggle to have sympathy for your DH when he's had countless outbursts and probably caused her a lot of emotional trauma over the years. You say now, he's only started to be more in control over the last few years - but similarly, you're unhappy that your 18 year old doesn't have her emotions under control.

Not saying your DD is right at all, but I had a highly abusive and volatile father and I know what kind of trauma that brings.

toddlermam · 22/12/2023 18:04

I also think it's absolutely none of his business if she goes to Mexico. Fair enough he doesn't want to pay for it - but if she manages to find the money for flights then it's unfair that he will stop her UNIVERSITY allowance. He is a parent and this is a commitment he made when she started university.

webster1987 · 22/12/2023 18:04

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 11:03

So she manages to keep a lid on work and uni behaviour, but has had massive blow outs with friends and BF. If she feels close to someone and feels that she has been hurt or wronged by them - she will flip. It's always when she feels 'wronged' or rejected. She seems to feel things so hard and cannot control her response

Then she is able to control it, just chooses not to when with those closest to her

ProfessorPeppy · 22/12/2023 18:07

People with Borderline personality/traits are very sensitive to rejection, too. It must be about the thing that makes them lose it the most.

BPD is being reassessed as a diagnosis; it’s now thought to stem from undiagnosed autism, mainly in girls and women.

OP, your daughter sounds like she’s struggling with undiagnosed neurodivergence, and I agree with the ‘rejection sensitivity’ label. Might she be interested in pursuing a diagnosis?

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 18:09

IDK if you're anywhere near them @MarmiteMakesMeHappy but I went through clinical partners https://www.clinical-partners.co.uk/about/locations

They did a paper assessment for virtually everything and then he also considered ADHD/ASD etc (which he was a great fan of diagnosing people with and probably diagnoses a lot of people with.) You would need to then pay more for that assessment.

But I don't think that particular bloke still works for them. I will say be very careful with any private psychiatrist. I've had 2 (one not with CP) and both did things the NHS wouldn't have done and which made me worse. The NHS are more cautious about everything they do and follow guidelines.

So I would definitely also get NHS help. Nag the GP again telling him what's just happened. Say she needs a consultant referral urgently as she is being physically violent and is now an adult. If you do that and s/he won't refer her, change GP and ask the new one.

Consultants can vary- you can change both NHS and private ones if you aren't happy.

Our UK private clinics for psychiatry, psychology & ADHD assessments

We offer a range of quality private mental health services from our UK clinics, including autism and ADHD assessments, psychology, and psychiatric services.

https://www.clinical-partners.co.uk/about/locations

ProfessorPeppy · 22/12/2023 18:11

ProfessorPeppy · 22/12/2023 18:07

People with Borderline personality/traits are very sensitive to rejection, too. It must be about the thing that makes them lose it the most.

BPD is being reassessed as a diagnosis; it’s now thought to stem from undiagnosed autism, mainly in girls and women.

OP, your daughter sounds like she’s struggling with undiagnosed neurodivergence, and I agree with the ‘rejection sensitivity’ label. Might she be interested in pursuing a diagnosis?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10336461/

Autism Spectrum Disorder in Females and Borderline Personality Disorder: The Diagnostic Challenge

Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a heterogeneous neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by pervasive deficits in communication and social interaction and patterns of repetitive, restrictive interests and/or stereotyped behaviors. Female sex/gender...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10336461/

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/12/2023 18:13

webster1987 · 22/12/2023 18:04

Then she is able to control it, just chooses not to when with those closest to her

It's not necessarily a choice. The more formal distant relationships she has with staff at uni and at work may be protecting everyone. If you aren't so close to someone then maybe you don't feel so hurt or attacked when they criticise you.

Uricon2 · 22/12/2023 18:13

Doteycat · 22/12/2023 14:04

Dear god this is such bullshit.
Forget all the rambling diagnosis.
Throw your husband out.
Watch your lives get a million times better. And your dd will finally be free and maybe a have a mother who shows she gives a shit about her.
The answer is staring you in the face.
Your husband is and always has been an abusive bastard and because you tolerated it, your dd is paying the price
When will you advocate for her and get rid of the cancer in your home that is your husband.

So dramatic. Unless I've missed something the OPs husband wasn't violent. Her daughter is also explosive with her boyfriend and friends.

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 18:21

@ProfessorPeppy Yes and it's not even necessarily an either/or. I don't believe this person is ND but even if they are, it doesn't mean she doesn't have personality disorder/traits too; in fact it's more likely someone has a personality disorder if they're ND than for the general population.

CormorantStrikesBack · 22/12/2023 18:21

If your dh is happy to pay for a private autism assessment and counselling then I think that shows he’s willing to help her still. A private autism assessment will not be cheap, I think about £400-500. Then having to pay for private prescriptions and follow up appts until the correct dose is found and hopefully the GP will do shared care at that point. But do talk to the GP first about nhs wait lists….but afaik it’s currently years. I think all the right to choose/book places have closed their books to nhs lists due to high demand.

JaffaCake24 · 22/12/2023 18:25

CormorantStrikesBack · 22/12/2023 18:21

If your dh is happy to pay for a private autism assessment and counselling then I think that shows he’s willing to help her still. A private autism assessment will not be cheap, I think about £400-500. Then having to pay for private prescriptions and follow up appts until the correct dose is found and hopefully the GP will do shared care at that point. But do talk to the GP first about nhs wait lists….but afaik it’s currently years. I think all the right to choose/book places have closed their books to nhs lists due to high demand.

He should pay for his own while he's at it.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 18:33

afaik it’s currently years

ADHD/ASD lists are long but to see a general consultant can be quite quick based on how they prioritise the person. I imagine they'd prioritise an adult who's physically violent. Well, they should.

SweatpantPotato · 22/12/2023 18:46

The timing is what makes everything tricky, as what they both need is space. Your DP can't prevent her from going to mexico,, she's an adult. He can withdraw financial support, but that's not a unilateral decision is it? If my husband wanted to make a decision like that without me I would be sure to let him know that I would be reevaluating our relationship, we make financial decisions together.

How can you buy DD and DP some space from each other? Can she ask BF to fund the Mexico trip while you talk to DP about what financial support looks like going forward? And everyone needs counseling, for me, that would be a condition for DD to visit the family home (in light of the assaults), and a condition for me to stay married, because again, I wouldn't stay in a relationship where the other person unilaterally decided the outcome of conflicts.

I think it's ok to sit them both down separately and say, what's happened this time is serious and we need some time to figure things out. Neither of them gets to solely dictate the outcome of this. What does your DD suggest for payment? What is your DH compromise given that he can't keep her from going on the trip because she's an adult? You don't have to figure this out alone but Christmas isn't going to be perfect this year, maybe you could have a nice family get together in a few months once some boundaries and guardrails are in place.

SheWentWest · 22/12/2023 18:58

we need to accept that different people may react differently to an abusive parent scenario. There are many factors that can alter the outcome. Personality type, protective relationships outside the family unit. It’s all in the scientific literature l. For the people who came out ok it doesn’t mean others would be. I focussed all my emotion and anger back in on myself so I wouldn’t have assaulted anyone to that degree. I applaud and am envious of those who managed to channel it into something productive and healthy. I hope one day I can do the same

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 19:00

@SheWentWest I'm sure you're not as dreadful as you think. x

Doteycat · 22/12/2023 19:00

Uricon2 · 22/12/2023 18:13

So dramatic. Unless I've missed something the OPs husband wasn't violent. Her daughter is also explosive with her boyfriend and friends.

Ya you've missed something.
Husband is an abuser.
Wife is an enabler.
Dd is paying the price.

LizzieSiddal · 22/12/2023 19:06

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 16:28

Still here. Still reading.

DD has apologised to me profusely and repeatedly. She stayed with BF last night so things could calm down but DH is more angry today than yesterday. Yesterday he was very sad. Today he is angry. He definitely is not receptive to any conversations about his role in this right now. We have had those conversations and will again, but today he is hard-line fucked off/not moving.

His view is that no matter what - DD cannot assault her parents. He is right of course, but he is also very closed off to his culpability.

I am the family glue and I honestly don't know how to fix this one.

Everything else aside - Christmas/Holidays/Money for Uni/Past History/DD/DH/DC - all of it aside - I am frozen. I am a FREEZE when it comes to fight/flight/freeze and I can't even go to the supermarket because I can't cope with happy Christmas stuff. I am dreading tonight when DD comes home. They will argue round and round in circles and I can see it escalating again. Neither of them are sorry enough.

It is not fair in any way that you are stuck in the middle here. I’d be inclined to speak to them both, when Dd comes home, tell them the fight last night is not your fault or the other dcs, and cannot be fixed quickly/before Xmas and so everyone will put on a brave face, there will be NO arguments or nastiness from anyone or you will be taking the other two dc out for lunch/dinner and leaving DD and her father to it.

Uricon2 · 22/12/2023 19:11

Doteycat · 22/12/2023 19:00

Ya you've missed something.
Husband is an abuser.
Wife is an enabler.
Dd is paying the price.

No, I don't think I missed anything. I was bought up in a violent and abusive home, the OP has said that her husband was explosive but does not mention violence. This young woman needs help, which kicking the father who retaliated out won't achieve. To think so is simplistic and will not help her.

DontListenToWhatYouveConsumed · 22/12/2023 19:19

FWIW
Two wrongs do not make a right. Your husband should always keep his hands to himself.
Your DD needs help.
I think having them together today is madness.
Sitting on the fence gives you splinters. Take some control back (for the sake of your younger kids at least) and write up some house rules for everyone (dh & dd obviously)
If your H wants to withdraw the flight offer he can.
Messing with uni funding makes him a shit parent.
Buy your DD something else, from you.
IF your DD is willing to accept help/therapy then all good. But you can't make her.
Her relationship with her BF is none of your business. They're adults.
Ultimately though I believe you have a H problem.

Doteycat · 22/12/2023 19:28

Uricon2 · 22/12/2023 19:11

No, I don't think I missed anything. I was bought up in a violent and abusive home, the OP has said that her husband was explosive but does not mention violence. This young woman needs help, which kicking the father who retaliated out won't achieve. To think so is simplistic and will not help her.

Edited

So was I.
Her husband is violent.
He needs to be removed.

Stoufer · 22/12/2023 19:32

I’ve not read the full thread - have only read OPs first few posts, so not sure what else has been suggested. We have autism in our family, and some of the things you mentioned resonated with me. Inability to control / regulate emotions can be a big part of it, and ASD in girls is often expressed very differently to boys. It might be worth seeking advice about this (Lorna Wing Centre is very good). One thing I would say, is that if ASD is part of the mix then things like ‘tough love’ and ‘consequences’ may not be helpful. Sorry things are so difficult.

Uricon2 · 22/12/2023 19:36

Doteycat · 22/12/2023 19:28

So was I.
Her husband is violent.
He needs to be removed.

Have you read what she did, including kicking him in the groin while he was trying to stop her hitting her mother again?

Not talking about a child here, a grown woman who was violent towards her parents before anyone touched her.

slore · 22/12/2023 19:39

It is not true that your daughter cannot control her rages. If it was, her rages would not be selective.* *

The truth is she feels uncontrollably outraged at people close to her slighting her, or perceived slights. She can't control these emotions, but she is 100% in control of her actions - her words were specifically intended to cause maximum hurt. She purposefully went back to the argument at later times.

When "slighted", she feels outraged and victimised, and wants to dominate and punish into getting what she feels is the just outcome. She feels entitled to behave like this. She feels entitled to physically express her anger at you, because she blames you for causing her feelings.

Read "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft about (primarily male) domestic violence - it's not because the perpetrators are victims or because they can't help it - it's because they're entitled and seek to exert control. Nevertheless, perpetrators usually claim that they can't control themselves, that they are victims and that they need help, and that their violence is caused by other people triggering them. It's not true. Do not let your daughter attempt this.

She will NEVER improve as long as she insists her behaviour is out of her control. She needs to accept that her feelings are her responsibility and hers alone.

The most urgent need right now is to salvage Christmas. Don't freeze, just postpone. This is what I'd do:

Your daughter should stay away for one more night to let things cool. Assure your husband that you agree there will be consequences, and you will postpone these discussions until the 27th, to concentrate on Christmas. Ask him to act normally until then. Tell your daughter there will be consequences, but that it will be postponed until after Christmas. Call a truce until then and see if you can get them to agree to not talk about it at all until the 27th.

If your daughter tries to initiate conversations prior to this, you and your husband should practice "grey rocking" - that is, reacting in the most neutral way possible so as not to give any emotional fuel to her (which is what she seeks). Give no opinions or information. Just say "ok, we will discuss this on the 27th".

Finally, your daughter is an now an adult. Your husband has absolutely no right to punish her or control how she lives. No matter how she behaves, she's not a child, and punishment is no longer appropriate. This is categorical, and your husband needs to accept the reality of having an adult child.

Instead of punishments and trying to break her will, there are consequences. As an adult, having her flights paid for her is a privilege. Having her rent contributed to is a privilege. She has no idea what a massive privilege these things are, most parents could not afford this at all.

You know in your heart she can control herself, because you've pretty much dismissed the risk that these rages would get her into trouble in Mexico. However, you should still put it to her that if she cannot control her behaviour, she will be in danger in Mexico - it will make her think.

I fully agree with your husband that the consequence for her abhorrent behaviour is that you should not pay for her flights. Your daughter needs to learn that actions have consequences, and that apologies and excuses aren't a means to escape this.

I do not agree with him that he should otherwise prevent her from going to Mexico. He has no right to interfere with her life as an adult.

Going forward, you should agree ground rules for the future. For example, if your daughter is angry and shouting, she should contain this in her room. Disrupting work is unacceptable.

Allow her room to be a safe space she can retreat to for when she does feel violently aggrieved. Other family members should not approach her in her room when she's angry and needs to cool down.

Your daughter should be made aware of consequences of further tantrums. One should be withdrawal of the privilege of subsidising her living costs.

You need to talk to both your husband and daughter and figure out some ground rules for interacting, and ways to avoid aggravating each other.

It does sound likely that your daughter has a personality disorder, most likely EUPD. She does not have autism because she doesn't have impaired executive functioning, aside from emotional regulation, which can be better explained by EUPD. She also doesn't have rejection sensitive dysphoria, because their whole lives revolve around avoiding feeling rejected or criticised, and have obviously low self esteem. Your daughter sounds otherwise quite functional.

Any diagnosis is only relevant in that if she is found to have EUPD, she may benefit from mood stabilizers and/or therapy. Regardless of if she has any condition, yes, she absolutely should still face consequences, because her behaviour and emotions are still 100% her responsibility.

This needs to be nipped in the bud for her own sake. One day, she will lash out at the wrong person, and they may not stop at a slap. Also, if she's ever genuinely wronged, her history of poor behaviour will mean that people won't believe her.

Doteycat · 22/12/2023 19:48

Uricon2 · 22/12/2023 19:36

Have you read what she did, including kicking him in the groin while he was trying to stop her hitting her mother again?

Not talking about a child here, a grown woman who was violent towards her parents before anyone touched her.

Yep.
Read every single word.
Husband needs to go.
Mother needs to stop defending him and help her daughter after a lifetime of putting him first.
It's an absolute disgrace they let it get to this.
Shame on them.