This is how low men's bar for themselves is

[boundarypushingbastards]

So I am just back from a date. Guy seemed really nice when chatting before date, and I was really hopeful. He just seemed like a nice, regular guy. We are both outdoorsy and he suggested a nature walk. I thought this was a great idea. Off we went. Within 15 mins he was like, lets sit down. I did feel a bit 'hmm' as I thought we were doing a walk but ok. So we sit down and he immediately puts his hand on mine. I don't like this as I don't really know him so I move my hand away. He asks me if I want to see him again. I say ' I don't know I have only just met you.' He says he fancies me, I reply, ' You don't actually know me yet'. He asks for a kiss. I say no. He asks three more times whilst moving in closer for a kiss. I give him a firm no each time and by the fourth time I am really pissed off with this boundary ignoring shit and so I stand up and say, ' I've had enough of this.' and start to walk back to my car. He apologises but says, ' In my defence, I didn't actually do anything.'

This has really, really pissed me off. So in his world, because he hasn't actually assaulted me, he's a decent guy and I should give him another chance? Repeatedly ignoring a woman saying, ' No I don't want to', and continually pushing her to relent and using his greater size to move in on her physically, is ok if you don't actually assault her? That's how low his fucking bar is for himself and all men??

Fuck off! We are in our 50s! His other defence was ' Its been a long time I am out of practice'. What? He forgot women were humans with choice and agency in his shagless years? Fuck off!

Oh, and to make it worse, he has two teenage daughters. Is this how he wants men to treat them too?

I'm quite upset. It was a really horrible experience, being ignored and loomed towards like that. Made me feel really dehumanised and really shit.

What would you have done in this situation?

@Booklover40

If you want to report my comments, do. I don't mind. If they've crossed the guidelines, they should be deleted. But I don't have to cater for your offence. That's your job. Look after yourself. It's my whole point on this thread.

I'd already told him I didn't want a relationship with him, to be told that he knew there was something dodgy about me! I told him to fuck off and blocked him, I honestly couldn't be bothered, but you're right, I should have.
The previous date was an arrogant twat who was aghast at the fact that his wife left him for the man who laid their drive. By the end of the date, I was completely on the side of the wife, and when he booty texted me the next night, I gave him short shrift, told him how repulsive he was, and finished with 'I can see why your wife ran off with the drive man'.

Also Watchkeys I am interested to know exactly how I attacked you personally? (And for the benefit of those who didn’t see my comment before it was zapped)
I simply said I thought you were talking bollocks and that you seemed to be blaming women for men’s bad behaviour - how is that a personal attack?

I have my suspicions that you work as one of the moderators on MN as I’ve noticed it’s a pattern with you to have people’s comments deleted that you don’t agree with….

@LightSpeeds I would have queried him on why he wanted to sit down so soon into a walk, I wouldn't have sat if I didn't feel 100% ok with it, and if I hadn't liked his answer, I'd have told him so and left. If he'd asked me to kiss at a point that felt inappropriately soon, I would have left.

Why d'you ask?

but that's what you're telling women to do - otherwise they'd be generalising and assuming this poor individual is a creep based on one "off" feeling they got

It was the comment about what sort of person you thought I probably was. Very insulting. Obviously I won't repost it because it was offensive.

If you want to report my comments, do. I don't mind.

No, I’d rather leave them to stand so people can read your NAMALT views and see for themselves how your mind works.

@PaintedEgg There's no generalising in advising women to respond to their own feelings of discomfort by removing themselves from the situation. There's no assuming the man is anything. It's about the woman and how she feels. It's not 'You don't like it, so if you leave, you're generalising and assuming he's a creep', it's 'You don't like it, you leave.' It could be because he refuses to talk about anything but baking. It could be that you think he's a pedophile. It doesn't matter what he is: you are not comfortable. There's no generalising, just a response to your own feelings.

It was the comment about what sort of person you thought I probably was. Very insulting. Obviously I won't repost it because it was offensive.

Oh really? Read back through your posts then - do you honestly not understand why you come across like that from the kind of comments you make? I’m not the only one to have mentioned it either.

Maybe, but it just seems a bit bleak to me. I love walking - as in long hikes, but the thought of a first date being a short stroll in the park and a snog on a park bench is so depressingly lacking in imagination or zest. It's minimal effort.

I was on OLD about 7 years ago. I never went for a walk and I never met a man in a non public place for the first meeting. I met one guy who seemed to be way older than me and was not my type physically and I then later sent a " sorry but I don't think we are match". he answered the same. I have also had the same from another bloke and several fades. I didn't send a " OMG you are so much older than you look, you have a limp and I hate your teeth and old man clothes". There really is no need for this kind of behaviour. Imagine if someone sent a "OMG you are so fatter than you look in your photos, you have fat thighs and you have wrinkles around your eyes". It's just not necessary. As for this one I would not have been on a walk and if I had after the first asking for a kiss I would have been gone. I wouldn't have waited for 3 times.

Curiosity... But now I have your answer I realise I wouldn't have gone along with stuff I wasn't happy about either.

I probably wouldn't have even got to the meeting up stage.

@apostrophewoman I had the same thing when buying a carpet recently! Creepy texts from the salesman when I got home, emojiis and winks when I used the word 'length'. I did nothing to encourage this, was polite to him in the shop but because I was a woman on my own, he thought he could do that.

@Watchkeys Not everyone has your confidence, has all the answers, some women find men intimidating because of their past experiences. Hate it when you tell people that a man has abused you or treated you badly, and you get some arsehole saying 'well I would never let that happen to me, I would do this or do that'.

@Watchkeys and actually don't believe for a minute that you have been in abusive relationships and had an abusive father sorry

Honestly, I don't know who they think they are and what gives them the right to do this, it's beyond my comprehension.

I had an abusive father. I was terrified of him. I was brought up to believe that he was the boss and I must always obey him, otherwise there would be awful consequences. So this is my default reaction to men now, that I must obey them and they are in charge. If a man is creepy, or insulting, or abusive, I freeze and can't stand up myself or defend myself.
I've even gone to the police and reported physical abuse, attempted rape, threats to kill me and brick my windows in. What did I get from the police? Male officers dismissive and uninterested, a six foot odd 20 stone male officer stood in my living room last year and told me next time I should record incidents on my phone for evidence. This man had no clue what it felt like to be intimidated and vulnerable, to freeze when under attack? And I should risk enraging an angry man even more and possibly have my phone smashed?
Haha. @Watchkeys give me some of your helpful and sensible and oh so logical advice on how I should deal with these situations I find myself in.

and how does that change anything about the key complain: that men are entitled creeps?

so your advise is what? to not give them the opportunity? they'll still be entitled creeps, but you're shifting onto women the responsibility to minimise the occurrences of this behaviour. these men still won't understand they're being creeps

and then these assholes complain about women being rude and just not appreciative of "the nice guys"

even worse, women who have these hard boundaries are often presented as unfriendly, rude and mean

especially since men act this way even if you make no indication of even wanting to talk to them. some bastards will literally gesture to you to take your earphones out in public spaces because they want a chat!

It’s dreadful out there. I went on a date with a guy who on paper seemed a real gent. He proceeded to spend half our date slagging off moody menopausal women - he was 55 ffs. I did say to him did he realise who he was talking to?

Another guy who came across as lovely on the phone - we had 2/3 lengthy calls before arranging to meet - decided to ‘treat’ me with a naked photo the day before our date was due then tell me I was a prudish drama Queen when I told him it was inappropriate.

The last date I had was with a man who I really clicked with and our date lasted several hours just chatting. He then tried up shove his tongue down my throat walking back to station and was quite shocked that I pulled back as ‘we fancy each other so what’s wrong with you?’
He apologised and asked to meet again. We chatted normally for a day then he sent a message saying ‘I have to tell you how fantastic your tits are’ and then couldn’t understand that I didn’t think this was as an amazing compliment and wasn’t flattered.

They’re everywhere. I could take the whole thread with similar stories that I’ve experienced and friends who have had the same and even worse. And these are the ones who made the very carefully filtered cut.

Intensely creepy and worrying, I'm so sorry. The walk is fine in general but this guy obviously knew exactly what he was doing. So inappropriate and unfair of him.

How tone deaf even if he "didn't actually do anything" to take a woman to an isolated location and immediately trying it on and engineering the situation to make that happen. Do they have no regard to the dynamic between men and women and the way this would make any woman feel?

Worse, maybe he does and gets off on it.

I was going to say I'm glad you got away unscathed but the experience itself is bad and off putting and I'm just really angry on your behalf!

I think the low bar is a walk for a first date - it's cheap and pointless.

At least with a coffee & cake, or a drink & bag of Kettle chips, you would have a table between you and there's more a possibility of proper behaviour. You could then have had a chance to look at and size him up and he wouldn't have been in the physical position to be reaching out and wanting to kiss you.

I'm surprised at your age (I'm older than you) you agreed to this new-fangled idea that a walk is a date!

Massive battle of egos here, and the best thing to do in such an unhealthy environment is to walk away. Good luck to you all.

Gimjam, I'm sorry about your abusive dad. Whether you believe me or not, mine was violent to my mum, often drunk, and completely narcissistic. It took me years of counselling to have any faith in humanity at all, and I'd suggest the same for you. It helped me to see that I was a product of my upbringing, and other situations were available in the world. I still come across creeps, don't get me wrong, but the way I feel about it is different now. I've come across shitty women too, quite a few, but wouldn't dream of labelling all women.

I'm really not sure how all your worlds exist, full of unavoidably shitty men, alongside mine, where people of both sexes are shitty sometimes in different ways, but mostly reasonable and respectful. I'm also bewildered as to why anybody would be arranging dates with men if they're generally so unacceptable.

But each to their own. Looking forward to all the 'glad yo see the back of you' posts from those who like to have the last word!

Well to be fair, I have a dog so I sort of get the rationale…😀

I’m sure every one of these men we’ve mentioned on this thread have friends, family, work colleagues, neighbours who have never seen that side of them and will say they’re the nicest men in the world and it’s a shame they can’t meet a nice lady.
They’re all mr average who have very good qualities otherwise they would never get to the point of going on dates - it’s just the entitlement that they seem to have when it involves crossing the boundaries with potential new partners.

I would put my hand on my heart and say I can not imagine my lovely male friends being like that but if they were suddenly single after all these years, maybe they would be exactly like that on dates. They’re my friends not potential partners so it’s very unlikely I’ll ever see how they behave when trying to date.

It’s not like any of us live in a bubble surrounded by predatory men. The main thing they all have in common is they seem absolutely lovely, genuine guys otherwise we wouldn’t be agreeing to dates with them. I’m very selective. Very few men I speak to pass my high bar to agree to a date and yet even with a strict criteria of who makes the cut, I’ve still had situations where they expect to just pounce on me for an unsolicited kiss.

So yes there is victim blaming in this thread rather than looking at the perpetrators and why they think it’s acceptable to behave the way they do.