This is how low men's bar for themselves is

[boundarypushingbastards]

So I am just back from a date. Guy seemed really nice when chatting before date, and I was really hopeful. He just seemed like a nice, regular guy. We are both outdoorsy and he suggested a nature walk. I thought this was a great idea. Off we went. Within 15 mins he was like, lets sit down. I did feel a bit 'hmm' as I thought we were doing a walk but ok. So we sit down and he immediately puts his hand on mine. I don't like this as I don't really know him so I move my hand away. He asks me if I want to see him again. I say ' I don't know I have only just met you.' He says he fancies me, I reply, ' You don't actually know me yet'. He asks for a kiss. I say no. He asks three more times whilst moving in closer for a kiss. I give him a firm no each time and by the fourth time I am really pissed off with this boundary ignoring shit and so I stand up and say, ' I've had enough of this.' and start to walk back to my car. He apologises but says, ' In my defence, I didn't actually do anything.'

This has really, really pissed me off. So in his world, because he hasn't actually assaulted me, he's a decent guy and I should give him another chance? Repeatedly ignoring a woman saying, ' No I don't want to', and continually pushing her to relent and using his greater size to move in on her physically, is ok if you don't actually assault her? That's how low his fucking bar is for himself and all men??

Fuck off! We are in our 50s! His other defence was ' Its been a long time I am out of practice'. What? He forgot women were humans with choice and agency in his shagless years? Fuck off!

Oh, and to make it worse, he has two teenage daughters. Is this how he wants men to treat them too?

I'm quite upset. It was a really horrible experience, being ignored and loomed towards like that. Made me feel really dehumanised and really shit.

@PaintedEgg

Nobody has said it's all down to women, and it isn't all men. For reference, I'm a woman and have been in abusive relationships, and had an abusive father. I'm not some incel bloke trying to claim innocence.

The warped views on here are rife. Anybody who thinks that 'men' set a very low bar for themselves isn't allowing individuals to be individuals. We do have issues in our society with male attitudes, but giving up on dating because men are shit is shooting yourself in the foot. Many women are in relationships with and friends with decent, kind respectful men, who don't need to be tarnished in this way by women who have generalised prejudice against men, when what the women have a problem with is the men having a generalised prejudice against women. It just perpetuates the divide.

Walk away from anybody who treats you in a way that doesn't make you happy. The shitty people will be left all alone, and those who want relationships will end up in healthy ones. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves in our personal lives, and not lay the blame with someone else if they treat us poorly and we allow ourselves to be bothered by it. People can treat us however they want, as long as they don't break the law. It's up to us to manage who we spend our time with, and to walk away if it doesn't feel right. OP's date, for me, would have been different from the point where he said 'Let's sit down' and I felt 'Hmm'. That's where she stopped taking responsibility for herself, and started doing thing his way, even though it didn't feel right for her. Abusive relationships can be stopped much sooner if people do what they want to do rather than going along with other's wishes and disregarding their own discomfort. Very little abuse would ever progress beyond one uncomfortable encounter, and very few abusers would actually get to be abusive. It's the shark cage thing. We do have an issue in society with men's behaviour, but we don't have to sit down when he wants to because we would prefer to go for a walk, as agreed.

Feminism has turned into a blackwashing, 'men are shit' narrative, which isn't healthy for anybody.

This is why I stay single. I just can’t be arsed with horny harry types with wandering hands before they’ve even spent any time with me. Yes there are lovely & respectful men out there but this would totally put me off🤮

@Watchkeys i think it is pretty clear that there is a level of generalisation and everyone knows there are good men out there.

But the experience of coming across entitled and pervy men is so common is so universal that there are studies about this phenomenon.

I am married and I adore my husband, but I don't live in a bubble and I can absolutely see where the narrative of "men are shit" is coming from. whichever statistic of awful behaviour you look at: domestic violence, harassment, assault, even catcalling or sending unsolicited nudes - for every single one of them men outnumber women.

and sadly, often people who say that men are not so bad simply don't interpret some of very shit behaviour as "so bad". One of the first comments in this thread tried to excuse this creep as "maybe he's just rusty"!

and saying someone stopped taking responsibility for themselves because they sat down next to another person is a bit of a stretch

Finally, you genuinely don't need to be actively dating to be exposed to this weird entitlement . As I've said - Im married, and I could easily list several situations where men acted in awful ways.

Sorry, which shitty people did I choose to stay with? Not this one, I was gone within 5 minutes of his shit behaviour starting to manifest itself. And not the one I found out was a fraudster, as I dumped him as soon as I found out about that too.

Making things up to suit your argument is not an argument. In fact, it just illustrates how weak your case is that you need to do that.

Having read Watchkeys updates I now understand her position. Its that men are all individuals and we absolutely cannot generalise about their behaviour. However we can generalise about women's behaviour around men, and must totally view their behaviour through a generalising filter, to the extent that walking away at the start of a first date from a man behaving in a way you don't like is tolerating shitty behaviour, dumping the ass of someone as soon as you find out they have been lying to you is tolerating shitty behaviour. Sitting down next to someone (who by the way had struggled up the incline, puffing and out of breath and suggested stopping by a viewpoint, so there was a legitimate reason to think he just needed a rest) is a clear sign of lack of boundaries. So we can definitely use a generalising filter to understand women's behaviour through, but not men. Who are individuals. Unlike women. Who conform to types. Which men don't.

And can I also point out that people seemed to have interpreted ' nature walk' as ' remote wilderness'. It wasn't. Its a popular local beauty spot. I had to drive past the first car park as it was full. There are always people around there. Even on a weekday people will be passing by you frequently.

Making things up to suit your argument is not an argument

I didn't make anything up. I said that you sat down with this guy when it didn't feel right to you, because he wanted to, and that's where I would have done things differently to stop myself becoming a victim of the same frustrated narrative that you've posted with.

Stop attacking me. You let the guy have his way when he crossed your boundaries, within minutes of meeting him. That's women's part in the toxic narrative you're pissed off with. That's all I'm saying. It's not victim blaming or 'NAMALT' to say that women need to be responsible for maintaining their own boundaries, and it goes for all relationships, not just those between opposing sexes.

I don't have a 'weak case' because my point is that you could have said no when he suggested to sit down, and you didn't. And I'm right. My other point is that we do have an issue with sexism in society, that some men do abuse women, and that not all men abuse women. Not sure which of those you can say is 'weak' as an argument, but I'm sure you'll have a go, because egos need to prove that they're right, regardless of the evidence before them.

@Watchkeys you're still missing a point - sitting next to someone should not be a bloody hard boundary. whether you actually met up with someone or they happen to use the same bus stop.

i can react in whatever way i want, but i shouldn't have to be so careful when interacting with every random person i come across because they don't understand "no", i shouldn't have to assume the worst and yet I have to

You are missing my point, @PaintedEgg , that unless anybody is breaking a law, you feeling uncomfortable around them is your problem. People are allowed to look creepy and other people are allowed to stay away from them.

I'm not sure which 'no' you uttered that I have disregarded or disrespected, but if you say no to someone and they don't heed it, you leave. They are not under obligation to respect your individual boundaries under any authority than your own, until they break a law. I might say 'no' to someone who sits 20m away from me in a park, and tell them they're too close to me. But that's my problem to deal with. Maybe you think it isn't, but what about 30m? 40m? 3 miles? The point is that unless there is an official law, you are the one for ensuring that your boundaries are met, and you don't do it by issuing orders about what other people 'should' do. There are no 'shoulds'. Respect is nice. Kindness is nice. Decency is nice. But people don't always stick to them, so we have to look after ourselves in the face of the rudeness of others. Rudeness isn't objective.

Right.

But the tone of your posts are still leaning towards victim blaming. This woman asserted her boundaries within 5 minutes of meeting this man and you seem focused on the fact she didn't immediately leave the situation. The data she was working with prior to sitting down had led her to believe he was decent and worthy of meeting for a date. Of course she sat down with him.

Yes, I think the majority of posters acknowledge that NAMALT, but to imply that she was at fault here for what happened next (that's how I read it anyway) is totally overlooking the main issue IMO. The incidents the OP describe are not uncommon in dating and in general, sadly. I have the t-shirt. It is psychologically damaging to keep coming up against incidents like the ones OP has experienced and be told 'hey, it's your fault for poor boundaries. Just walk away and be less poor in your choices' Like, really? OP is the one making poor choices here? Looks like she made a flipping brilliant one to me by getting the hell out of there!

Yes, he wasn't under any legal obligation to be nice or decent or respect her personal boundaries. But might you consider how this has left her feeling rather than telling her it's her own fault for allowing it to happen to begin with? I'm sure this would land in a much better way and emphasise your other, kinder points.

@Watchkeys and im pointing out that you are saying women should not generalise and think a lot of men are creeps with no respect for boundaries, while also claiming we should generalise and immediately leave situation because someone sat at a bench (but we cannot complain about it!)

No, he did not assault the OP.

And ... almost unbelievably so, he congratulated himself for it. Kin hell. This is what is meant by a low bar: his is low enough that not even a centipede could crawl underneath. The entitlement is off the scale. His reasoning is that 'well, a woman said "No", and I only had to hear it four times before I actually took her at her word! Go, me!'

And that's the other major red flag. Woman says 'no'. Man hears something else entirely, and acts on that interpretation rather than what was actually said. And yes, there is no question that he did so. She had to repeat herself four times before it sunk in.

This is the point at which Gavin de Becker and others well versed in this behaviour tell you to take to your heels and run. OP acted under good advisement.

As for telling the police, of course they won't be interested. Why would they, when even rape is de facto legal? But I'd certainly tell the site. His inability to hear 'no' is a definite danger sign. Men like this have a tendency to escalate.

What's with all these fucking NAMALTs who show up on every single thread of this type?

Can you imagine if you did "let" him kiss you. Then quickly progress to sex on the next date. Then there's no third date because he will dump you. Dump you because you were too "easy" and the "chase" has come to an end.

These guys don't have little self respect and even less for women. Well done for standing up for yourself x

And I’m sure the apologists would still blame the woman for sleeping with him and putting herself in a position to be dumped.

Yes as women we need to be assertive but the absolute issue is with men who think it’s acceptable to push the boundaries. That’s who need to look at their entitlement and behaviour. They are the problem not the women they pounce on.

I had my date on Friday, not the worst date ever, didn't find him at all attractive on sight, he hadn't made much effort, so just got through the date chatting. He spent a lot of time telling long stories about himself to make himself look good, but at least didn't try it on. He texted me later to say he really liked me, had had a lovely time and did I want to take it further.

As soon as I said I'd had a lovely time, happy to stay in touch and chat, BUT he wasn't the one for me, he turned into an arsehole, said he'd known there was something dodgy about me, and why would he want to stay in touch! I told him to fuck off and blocked him.

I'm so tired of these men who are so bloody immature and have world sized egos, that can't imagine a scenario in which I don't find them attractive and want to sleep with them.

I'm very fussy who I talk to as well, I don't pick the ones who don't complete their profile, who don't write a nice piece about themselves, and I am a grammar freak so they have to be able to spell, so I've already sifted out the ones who can't be bothered to make the effort to share a bit about themselves, and who can hold a conversation rather than just 'hi gorgeous, wot are you looking for'.

As lots of people have said, I'm sure there are lots of lovely men out there, most of them probably already taken, but there is a huge cess pool of men swimming around who really don't have the first idea how grossly repulsive their behaviour and attitudes are.

One of my workmates, a bloke (63) I get on really well with, is married, and has taken a great interest in my dates and online dating experiences. He has told me this morning that he has joined the same dating app as me. I said 'but you're married' and he just shrugged.

When I bought my carpet, the bloke who owns half the company texted me quite inappropriately after I left the shop, and, amongst other things, told me I was a MILF. I had a quick look on Facebook, found his page with pictures of his girlfriend very easily, and absolutely ripped his head off.
These men are everywhere, and it makes me sad and angry and tired all at the same time.

@apostrophewoman

Sadly that’s my experience too. With dating I set very strict criteria, delete anyone who attempts sexual talk, can’t spell or has no real life outside trying to find a gf. I can count on my fingers the ones I’ve actually met and still most of them attempt to shove their tongue down my throat on the first date.

I was with my ex 25 years so never imagined myself in this position. And these men are in their 50’s - not young kids who don’t know any better.

I love the 'Why the fuck do the NAMALTS always turn up on these threads?!' attitude.

You are convinced you are right and will not consider otherwise. Thing is, those of us who realise that you're wrong are comfortable in our lives, and don't feel like victims of society when we have a date that doesn't go well. We feel that that bloke was an idiot, and we leave him sat on his park bench. There is no acceptance of responsibility. Definitely it was his fault that he was an idiot, but choosing to continue the date beyond your own comfort zones is as much women's conditioning as his idiocy is of men's. Feeling like a victim is women's conditioning. You are not able to see beyond your conditioning, and neither is he. We are all in this, and if we want to have happier lives, we all need to release ourselves from our conditioning.

OP, my comments about you are about you and your date, and what you've told us about what you did in response to Mr Prat. I haven't generalised anything. I'm not talking about what women need to do in general, I'm talking about what women who feel like victims need to do to stop feeling like victims. Not general. Specific. I'm not generalising, and neither should you, if you want it to get better.

I'm 53, and so looking at the same age group as you. I'm also quite offended by the amount of men who take absolutely no care of themselves, who look years older than their actual age (if they're actually being truthful) and who have such strict rules about the women they want to date. Mr Friday Night went on about various dates he'd had and ran them all down, but there he sat looking years older than he said he was, in his very casual, old clothes, that seemed like he'd made no effort, his saggy neck and his horrible teeth.

There is just such a witless incomprehension at work.

If you are so confident in your views Watchkeys why didn’t you let my comment stand? What exactly bothered you so much about it? Could it be because there was truth in what I said?

Pathetic.

Because you insulted me personally, which is against the guidelines of MN. However right you might consider yourself to be, and however wrong you might think someone else is, you don't get to do that here.

Funny really, given that your whole point is about how terrible it is when people cross others' boundaries. You're sort of proving my point that everybody does it, aren't you.

That's the third or fourth time I've read a post about MNers going on a first 'date' with a stranger which involves just going for a walk. It's not lockdown anymore. Places are open again!

Raise the bar. If he can't be bothered to pay for coffees, drinks, a gig, cinema, tickets to an exhibition or dinner even on the first date, then he's really only after one thing and it's not a relationship.

Weren't you sorely tempted to tell him? I would be. I'd have no patience at all for this sort of double standard.

No, I said that if something on a date feels uncomfortable, women shouldn't just go along with it because the man wants them to.

No generalising there, I don't think.

Watchkeys - in that case you are crossing my “personal boundaries” in your persistence that the OP was to blame here and your view that all women are basically asking for the consequences if they go and sit on a bench or go for a walk with a man. Shall I have your comments deleted as I find them offensive?

My, you are a precious flower aren’t you for one so vehement in their own views!

Loads of successful relationships have started with a walk. Lots of shit dates and relationships have started in a bar or over dinner. If 2 people enjoy walks, it's not a low bar to share one.