Affairs

[Theanswersalemon]

People who begin new relationships by cheating on their spouse/paerner end up "trading down" from their spouse. Often way down. Do you agree, or not?

I only know of one couple where the MM left his wife (actually, she left the marital home) for the OW. He definitely traded down in terms of looks, intelligence, and kindness. The wife was a quiet, homely sort of person - a nurse. The OW is loud and is the sort of woman who boasts about 'keeping her man happy' by giving him sex even when she doesn't really feel like it.
That example appears to be that he traded down in everything but availability of sex. Although even that might not be correct because the wife might still have been having sex with him - I simply don't know.

Just what i have observed. That and going for basically the pornstar look.

Women are having affairs too though. Its escapism from the mundane drum of life often and the actual affair partner has little to do with it.

@Theanswersalemon

I agree that telling anyone that their feelings are somehow 'wrong' is belittling and nasty, as is making assumptions about anyone's emotional level

Of course, there's also some people on MN who have issues with projection and create narratives in their mind. My experience is that sometimes when a woman comes across as strong - as you have - that people try and knock her down. Had you come here weepy and desperate people would generally be kind. Perhaps on some level some people think women should be weepy and desperate so if you're not you must be angry / bitter or with false bravado!

@needtofatoff

Women are having affairs too though. Its escapism from the mundane drum of life often and the actual affair partner has little to do with it

I am going to say something I might get my head bitten off for - maybe it's sexist, it probably is. But reading the women's comments here, the ones who had an affair seem to have done so because their needs genuinely were not met in their marriage and they met a more suitable partner. Not an ideal or good way to leave a marriage, but ultimately it's motivated by unmet needs and knowing the original partner is wrong for you.

I don 't think I have ever heard (and I have spent many years in groups and forums for infidelity) of a woman crying that she madly loves her husband, desperately wants to save her marriage, feels nothing for the affair partner and it was just a bit of sex. Women don't seem to do that.

I have heard of several women who had an affair (typically one that starts emotionally by a man paying them attention and getting close to her in a way her husband perhaps hasn't) and then being torn between the lover and the spouse. There does seem to be a tendency for the AP to be meeting an emotional need though.

Men seem to have meaningless affairs with people they wouldn't in a million years want to be in a relationship with, when they love or still want to be married to their wife with much greater frequency. Perhaps this is something to do with the way they compartmentalise sex and emotions a bit differently?

I remember my husband had an affair with someone he wouldn't have looked twice at for a relationship. Not because she was too ugly (I doubt he'd have cared about that if he loved her) but because she wasn't the type of woman he generally admires. He likes strong women - she was weak and needy. He likes independent women - she was extremely clingy. He likes easygoing women - she was immensely dramatic. He likes sensible women -she was a drunk with chaotic behavior.

After I left him, despite pleading and desperation, he never wanted to me with the AP. He had no true romantic or loving interest in her. It was a one-way transaction. She allowed him to feel "big" and she showered him in compliments and listened to him and was desperate for him and he liked the way that felt.

His desperation and grief following the events that occurred made it clear he truly did love his wife and regrets every moment of it.

I can't fully picture a woman behaving like that. Would we find a man we think is unattractive with a drinking problem in a bar and have repeated sex with him because he gave us compliments? Even if we were single I don't think we would do that.

Maybe I am wrong!

I think you're onto something @LemonyTicket
I think its rooted in the respective level of access to and availability of sexual partners for men and women.
For most women, someone wanting to have sex with us is not a novelty or flattering. It's not something we feel we must seize the opportunity for in case we don't get another one, as we mostly know we will. Nor is it our first port of call for an ego boost, as we tend to know a man's willingness to sleep with us is not much of a compliment.

@5128gap

Absolutely. Sorry if this is sexist, but if I wanted an old drunk with emotional issues to tell me I was amazing I'd just walk into the pub. It would not be an ego boost, it would be bloody gross!

@5128gap
Your post of 8.56 raises some interesting points.

Years ago I met a guy via an on-line dating facility. He listed his status as 'separated'. I was a bit unsure about that but decided to meet him. We got on fine and went out for drinks and a couple of meals.
I decided to broach the 'separated' issue.

He started to be evasive, so I pushed him harder. I said that he was lying and I believed he was actually married. I said I was going to walk out (of the posh restaurant) if he didn't tell me the truth.

His 'confession' was quite appalling

He told me that yes, he was married but his wife was ill. She had a progressive neurological wasting disease of unknown prognosis ie; she might die in 2 weeks or she might live another 2 years. She was an NHS patient in a specialist nursing home out of the area. She still had control of her mind.
He was still living at home in their house.

He said he wanted a female companion for days out, meals, holidays etc.

I asked if she knew what he was doing and he said that he'd been given 'tacit' permission. I told him that wasn't good enough, that I wanted to meet her and ask her straight if it was OK with her and see if she would give him a divorce.

He got panicky and started back peddling so fast I could almost see smoke rising.

If his story was true (it could have been a pack of lies) I could see why he didn't want a divorce. If they divorced she would get half the value of the house and he would have to sell-up to pay her. In addition, she was getting free NHS treatment because she had no assets. Once she had assets the nursing home could means-test her and charge her. He would lose out all they way down the line.

I told him he was a despicable scum-bag and left.

The only lesson I learned from this was that, if I ever got married again, I would make these issues were discussed and a plan devised while we were both fit and healthy.

That's awful!

But if his story was true, it's a cruel situation. Who are we to judge?

Hmm... I think there's something in this. However, in at least a couple of cases I know, whilst its true that casual sex wasn't the - at least admitted - reason for cheating, the novelty of the romance was. Both admitted they wanted to feel like teenagers in love again, one so far as saying there was nothing fundamentally wrong with her husband - it was just that after a decade together he was just too familiar and had no mystery!

So, yes, they did indeed want a relationship - however it was still an endorphin rush they craved, just a "new, crazy in love" one as opposed to a purely sexual one.

And I feel this is a factor that @DontStarveAGirlOfAPalaver doesn't consider in her earlier post - I know of so many cases where a supposed casual FWB ends up igniting "feels". Sex, unfortunately, promotes bonding hormones, I guess from an evolutionary perspective to help people who procreate stick together and look after the resulting kid. So, for a high percentage of people, when you play with that casual partner for kicks or to get your "erotic" needs met, there's a high chance you'll end up bonding with them more than expected, which then competes with the existing bond you have with your partner.

I judge him and if that gets me flamed, so be it.

Any person who shoves their dying spouse into a nursing home so they can be free to get their 'jollies' is beyond despicable.

I have known people (male & female) who did everything they could to keep their terminally ill spouse/partner at home for as long as possible. They did this with help from home care services, district nurses, family and friends.

The guy I met never even went to see her, just 'phoned her once a week.😡

Well, it seems this thread has run it's course.

So I'll just give my take on the original question.

The idea behind "affairing down" is that APs (affair partners) are low-hanging fruit. Not a lot of people are willing to be an AP, so the cheater has to take what they can get.

Whether or not there is merit to the idea is another question.

If you really want some sort of theory behind it, I'd say it has something to do with the AP's lack of self-respect, confidence and self-worth. If they're willing to tolerate the attached party trot out a myriad of excuses, as to why leaving /divorcing is not possible at the moment, if they're willing to settle for breadcrumbs instead of a whole loaf for an extended period of time - that says something about their sense of self-worth and respect.

It has nothing to do with looks/intelligence/class/money.

Most people would not admire or respect a cheater and a married /attached person knows this. They realizes their relationship status is a huge negative when it comes to attracting an AP. If they want to have their needs met in an affair, they must find someone that will admire them, respect them, love them, accept them, compliment them and be attracted to them regardless of the fact that they're married and cheating.
It's all about them and what they want to feel like. A disappointed partner/spouse makes them feel like a failure, but an AP who doesn't expect much makes them feel like a king/queen.

Of course isn't true in all affairs, but most cheaters are not great people stuck in bad circumstances. Many are just flawed, selfish individuals who make a mess of their lives and drag down and hurt those that love them.

The big issue is the power of deceit. The cheater uses deceit to keep the partner/spouse in the dark and the AP buys into the deceit and needs to believe that this deceit is not a true reflection of their character.

Cheaters seek to meet their needs, by looking externally for what is an internal problem. It doesn't follow that those needs are valid or realistic.

It's not easy to provide an endless supply of respect, compliments, sex and attention to someone who may have behaved in ways that you no longer admire. If someone has a pattern of broken promises, irresponsibility, immaturity. etc

The spouse/partner might not be as willing to supply as the AP, who hasn't been disappointed yet. This is why when the AP becomes disillusioned, when they have expectations and start calling the cheater out on the failure to deliver, the cheater will often seek another source of supply.
Many cheaters may choose to cheat based on their perception of unmet needs, overweight wife, husband is lazy, not enough sex, etc. - but these are just excuses.

The real reason they makes this choice over other options like marriage counselling, divorce, an open marriage, individual counselling, is because of their character and lack of integrity,

A sense of entitlement, unrealistic expectations of marriage/partnerships, immaturity, passive behaviour, unhealthy needs for attention and validation, conflict avoidance, poor coping skills, being emotionally unavailable and empathetically bankrupt are explanations that can help understand the choices cheaters make,

And there endeth the sermon.

The problem with this whole thread, @Theanswersalemon , is that you have framed it some kind of objective discussion, whereas I think it probably seems to the rest of us that you are avoiding confronting your own personal pain by generalising, and in some quite vicious terms (“talking dildo” or whatever it was).

Some people have affairs because they meet someone who is kind to them, in a life that has no kindness in it. There are myriad reasons for affairs. (I’ve never had one, btw, but I know people who have.) Marriage is a social construct - a brilliant one imv - but it is not a perfect fit with the human condition.

I hope things get better for you soon.

I think that theory assumes that there are 'cheats' by nature, who go looking for affairs. While this may account for a proportion of the people who cheat it ignores the 'good people doing a bad thing' type, the ones who simply meet someone they prefer or are better suited to than their primary partner. Which isnt all thst surprising given how many people choose their life partner in their 20s when they are likely very different from the person they will be in their 40s.
These people aren't looking to cheat and desperately seeking someone 'low' enough to have them. Until they meet the AP they would have probably said they'd never cheat.

What @WorkingOnMyMindset said. ^

Sorry OP, I think you need to work on your mindset!

Sorry buy I think what some of these posters are saying is garbage OP. It's a weird mentality that surrounds infidelity.

Affairs are people who are supposed to be loving you, looking after you, protecting you and faithful to you deciding that instead of doing that; they're going to monumentally deceive you, betray you, and put you directly in harms way.

It's morally wrong, and it's a form of abuse towards your spouse who trusts you. While some have posted here that they're happier with their affair partner, they still owed their spouse to divorce and start a new relationship AFTER. If they don't like that arrangement they probably shoiofnt have got married because that's the agreement they made.

Some here are trying to refrane that as YOU need an attitude change, YOU are "vicious", YOU aren't just being kind enough to those people who decided they just wanted to swap genital fluid with someone other than their spouse.

I say bollocks. I think in our society not enough stigma surrounds people who have affairs. They're so easily able to blame their insufficient spouse.

Life I'd complicated. We fall in and out of love. We might not want to be married anymore. And that's fine. But I don't think there's ever any excuse to cheat on your spouse. Just leave. Show some integrity FGS.

You're not vicious or bitter. What you have is contempt for people who lie, cheat, betray and hurt others for their own gain. And fair enough.

Bit of a lemon / citrus theme uniting some of these posters backing each other up, though, isn’t there?

The OP didn't ask what we thought of people who have affairs though @LemonyTicket
She asked if we thought people have affairs with someone 'lesser' than their partner.
Its quite difficult to discuss that without looking at the different types of affair and different motivation of people who cheat. If we take the OPs view of a cheat as the definitive, she may well be correct. But it does overlook many other types of cheating.
If you think that there should be less cheating (which I'd imagine we all do!) it's useful to understand properly why it happens. If we refuse to venture beyond the belief that cheating is always and only ever done by bad people with a bunch of negative personality traits, then we run the risk of assuming our own relationships are fire proof. I'm a good person and so is my Nigel so it won't happen to us etc. Until it does.

@WorkingOnMyMindset "whereas I think it probably seems to the rest of us that you are avoiding confronting your own personal pain by generalising... "

So now you are the spokesperson for the whole thread ?

Interesting 🙂

OK, citrus fruit gang, you win!
Yes, all cheats are driven only by their bodily fluids and grab blindly at whatever they can get their hands on.
There. Is that better?

My exH says himself he "downgraded" - I had a difficult pregnancy and had just given birth. He was missing sex and went elsewhere - typical cliche - his secretary!!

When he was trying to convince me to get back with him (for 2 years) he used to say how embarrassed he was about who he had cheated with.

She's 12 years older than me, 8 years older than him. Has a bit of a reputation for sleeping around, generally a bit "rough" - think orange leather skin from too much sun.

When I asked "why her?" The answer i was given was "I was a married man with a new baby at home, I didn't exactly have many options as anyone half decent would've told me where to go. She was there and offering it on a plate".

People were shocked when they heard of exHs affair.....the only thing that shocked them more was who it was with 😂

7 years on and they're now officially together - he told a mutual friend he got bored of being on his own. I often wonder her reaction if she'd heard some of his previous comments about her

Not at all, hence my use of ‘probably’ and ‘I think’ when referring to your very strong “Hell hath no fury” vibe.

Also, depends how you define "trading down" - if you're cheating on a loyal faithful partner with good morals for someone who is willing to have a affair with a married person (ie selfish with low to zero morals) then clearly they've traded down?

@WorkingOnMyMindset

No. Having an affair is morally wrong. If you want to be with someone other than your spouse then you should sit down with them, tell them the truth and seperate before you have sexual intercourse with someone else.

It's not the cheated on party that needs to 'change their mindset'. Their mindset is spot on: they're honest, faithful and treat others with respect. They're also more than entitled to feel 'bitter' if their spouse has been fucking someone else.

This isn't a character flaw. The character flaws is in the cheater. With very few exceptions

@5128gap

The OP didn't ask what we thought of people who have affairs though @LemonyTicket
She asked if we thought people have affairs with someone 'lesser' than their partner

Which is a perfectly valid question. It's a very common phenomenon actually.

Its quite difficult to discuss that without looking at the different types of affair and different motivation of people who cheat

I've got no problem with that. My issue is the people implying she's at fault and the thinly veiled attempt to squeeze her into the "bitter woman scorned" box. She's not. I've got a very negative view of people who fuck other peoples spouses too. Because it's objectively a very shit thing to do.

If we refuse to venture beyond the belief that cheating is always and only ever done by bad people with a bunch of negative personality traits, then we run the risk of assuming our own relationships are fire proof

That makes no sense. I don't think anyone has said cheaters are "bad people" but having an affair is objectively wrong. The degree to which its wrong depends on the circumstances.

Having been members of several support groups I've seen the devastating effects of this form of deception and betrayal and I wouldn't give someone who engaged in this behavior much respect.

Likewise I wouldn't respect a rapist or someone who hit their wife. Yes, I comparing those things because I'd assure you that if I could go back in time and I could opt for my husband hitting me or raping me I would definitely take either of those over the horror of an affair and the trauma that follows.

We dont tell women who are angry at wife beaters that they're "bitter" or need to "change their mindset". I feel its so antiquated the way we always want to cast women in these roles.

Sounds to me like she's a strong woman who's been betrayed by her spouse and doesn't think much of cheaters or affair partners. Which sounds like a very healthy place to be.